Bonus Episode: Pitfalls in Business by the Enneagram Numbers - THE EIGHT


The eights sometimes get a bad rap because of the intensity of their energy at times-especially surrounding anger. Yet, with their strengths, eights can move mountains, advocate against injustice, and protect the weakest. Take a listen to this episode in our enneagram series with Linda Frazee.

Guest Information:

Linda Frazee has over 40 years of experience as a professional speaker, business consultant and executive coach. She is the author, "Full Heart Satisfied Belly," and is founder of Positive Imagery, Inc., a personal and professional development company located in Scottsdale, AZ. Her professional training is in Transpersonal Psychology and Imagery.

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Episode Highlights:

10:47 The eight can stand up for people, but this is where they can get a bad rap. If they are upset, until they learn, they can overdo it. So in a meeting, they can call down the boss. And they frequently get fired because people can't take their personality because they will speak the truth, their truth.

15:42 For an eight, their life strategy is about taking action, correcting injustice, being strong, powerful, and in control, and create an intense life because they have this intense energy.

38:57 They rise to the top. They're not gonna be at the bottom. They're not going to be happy at the bottom and they're gonna rattle the cage until they're gonna get up higher.

--- Full Raw Transcription Below ---

Linda Frazee (00:00):

I am self propelled, fueled from within. I appreciate people's opinions, but I'm not attached to them. I learned a long time ago that if I give them the power to feed me, I also give them the power to starve me.

Introduction (00:14):

Welcome to the SideHustle Lounge. If you're looking for flexible ways to earn income, grow your mindset, and live the lifestyle you've always dreamed of, you are in the right place. So lower the lights. Grab your favorite beverage, and join your host, founder of and Amazon bestselling author of “Sign and Thrive: How To Make Six Figures As A Mobile Notary And Loan Signing Agent,” Bill Soroka.

Bill Soroka (00:48):

Cheers, and welcome back to the Enneagram. Again, super excited to continue our conversation on the Enneagram with Linda frizzy. Linda's been teaching and U while using and teaching and utilizing these practices for over 40 years now. And we've been making our way through the different types on the Enneagram. And today, we're talking about number eight, Linda. Welcome, and thank you so much for all this time. You're putting into teaching us this method.

Linda Frazee (01:20):

Oh, you're welcome Bill. This is such a fantastic system that I'm excited about sharing it with a lot more people and, and helping them understand some of the things that for instance, people who may have heard of it maybe took an online assessment or whatever, and got completely confused. So I really wanna encourage them to continue to listen because each time it is quite different. And and beyond this one, we have still one more for if those of, of you who've been listening to the whole thing. This is a, I know it's a lot, but there's even one more. And if that's your type, you may be going, oh gosh, how I'm not any of this, this doesn't work for me. Just hang in there. so I don't know if this is yours or not, but we're gonna be talking about type number eight today.

Linda Frazee (02:08):

But first of all, I want to start with that interesting fact that, you know, every time we talk about something now, for those of you who may feel confused, take this as a light interesting fact, because I don't want to overwhelm you, but once you, your home place, the type that you lead with most of the time and that's what we've been doing, then you can go a level deeper because in fact there are three of each type it's called subtypes. And so there's you know, so it's like a level deeper of lessons of learning. And I don't wanna get you too much into that, but it's a, an interesting fact about the Enneagram because if you've been listening to this and going, well, I don't know, this sounds kind of superficial. I identify with everything. Let me tell you that. The first thing is is what we're doing now is finding your home place, the place, your genetic predisposition, and then once you feel comfortable in that, then we look at your subtypes. So there's actually three kinds of ones, three kinds of twos, three kinds of fours, three kinds of eights, three types of sevens. Like we talked with Bill last time, there's three kinds of sevens and there's there, they're called the subtypes and there's self preservation, social, and one to one, which doesn't have to mean anything to you now, but I hopefully that will intrigue you enough to, once you find your type to take the next step to go a little deeper.

Bill Soroka (03:29):

You know, personally, I found that part of the anagram comforting, it's still overwhelming to me and I don't quite understand how all those pieces work and I've learned to be okay with that. What I love about the Enneagram system is that it is deeper that you can't just take a quick test and get placed by some random algorithm as to what personality you are. It really involves introspection and digging and figuring it out. So as much as that drove me crazy in the beginning, it actually is why I like the Enneagram so much. So I'm excited to dive deeper into this or where were you going with that?

Linda Frazee (04:15):

Okay, well, why don't we start with let's just stay with the eight and and then again, the subtypes were a whole nother class, but it's an interesting fact. So today I wanna talk to you about the type eight and but before we do that, let me just piggyback on something you said, because if you already decided, let's say you thought, well, you were a two, but you have a friend who's a two and you're going, we're nothing alike. How could we be? So then you doubt yourself or you doubt them. Well, the explanation is that three kinds of twos. So every two, of course you're not clones in the first place. And you all have your unique and different background and way of looking at things. There's just some, some primary things that are similar, but you still play them out in different ways.

Linda Frazee (05:00):

So I that's an important factor. So let's now talk about this number eight. And number eight is called the protector, the boss, the warrior, the top dog and the challenger. And they're a body type. You know, we talked about the three kinds of centers of intelligence. So we have the head center, the heart center and the body center. And we all have, have all three, but we have a preference and a, a default system, if you will. And the eight is a big default system to the body system. They feel everything in their body and and react strongly to everything in their body. And their emotional energy that they're having to work with throughout their whole life is anger because when they feel it, they, they I've had many people tell me who are eights that that it's like they have it in a safe with chains around it, but something triggers it and those chains break and the doors open and it's out, you know?

Linda Frazee (05:58):

And so an eight has to learn to work with that. And that's, it's just the way they've been all their life. So, you know, they, they wonder why are people upset or, you know, why are they always getting angry? But this is one of the beautiful things about the Enneagram. Those are some of the answers to those questions. So the genetic predispositions is to, for this little baby, this little eight baby is to have a capacity to bring up big energy, big energy. So you're genetically predispositioned, little baby is not just gonna be sleeping quietly in the crib. Well, they may be, but then when they want out or whatever, they're gonna let you know, and they can react with explosive, anger are upset or obstructed, and you can even see this before they're three, four months old, the other act actual family of origin factor for this.

Linda Frazee (06:46):

And there is a suggestive family of origin that informs the development for each type and for the eight, it's usually the, there's some controlling person in the family who is unfair or abusive to someone else. And maybe one of the parents to another parent, it could be you know, if there's several children in the family, maybe the parent gets along fine with everybody, but is abusive or harsh with just one kid that happens, unfortunately in dysfunctional families. And so as a result, this, this little person who is got this capacity for big energy takes a look at that and says, well, you know, this is, these people are not safe and they're being taken advantage of, and I'm not gonna be one of those. I'm gonna be the one that's in control. And so as a child, a little eight will confront their parents.

Linda Frazee (07:35):

If they see something wrong, all the other little kids could be hovered back in the corner. Shaking and little eight is right in the middle saying, that is not fair. You stop this right now. And and sometimes that helps. And sometimes it doesn't. So right. Almost always an eight child will have a history of tantrums. I mean, now all children can have tantrums on occasion. You know, I mean, it isn't like only eight have tantrums, but an eight child has massive tantrums frequently. And so and as, and then as you follow your history back through time an eight child will usually have trouble at school because they, you know, wanted crayons that the other kid had in. And they just, they turned the crayon box over or they hit 'em or they screamed and yelled and ran out or did something.

Linda Frazee (08:25):

And then when they get into sports, they often get in trouble because they're too harsh, too rough. And and all of that of course is a learning process. Now, depending on how the family reacts to that, that's a big difference. So if you have a, a fairly functional family and the parents say, okay, let's say this, kid's named Bobby and say, Bobby, let's, let's look at this. And they get him a punching bag and they teach in karate. And they U show him how to exercise and run and hike and do things because there's so much energy in this body that has to be continually worked on and, and released. So if you had some, some clever parents who were saying, oh, okay, whether or not they knew the Enneagram, they could just see Bobby and go, oh, okay. We gotta, you know, gotta help this kid do this.

Linda Frazee (09:12):

And let's say by high school, they've got him anger management, or they're saying, look, you're a really good athlete. You can really do wonderful things, but this is gonna get in your way. And if they have a healthy relationship, this kid, you know, will learn to begin to curb some of this energy and find some healthy ways to do it. Now let's go the opposite. Let's say you don't have a healthy relationship. And let's say, dad or mom gets more upset. The more upset these kids get, the more upset they get, the more they try to control 'em they, they ground them. They try to lock 'em in the basement. They abuse 'em in some way or another. They tell, tell 'em they're wrong and stupid, and what's wrong with them anyway. Well, that will never work with an eight because they just get bigger and better.

Linda Frazee (09:53):

And now you've got a problem, your hands, but now I will say this of all the Enneagram types, this could have been an interesting fact, the eights kind of get a bad rap because they are not like this all the time now. And this is another interesting fact. There is a level of health for each one of these types. Sure. So you can be unhealthy. You can be moderately well developed, or you can be very healthy. Me mentally and emotionally. I'm not talking about physically. And so if you are reasonably healthy, you know, this can be absolutely one of the best leaders on the planet, because they're called the protector. They protect their people. They are very, very sensitive to making sure everybody gets things done, but they can be sit down and talk with them. They can push through when they want to.

Linda Frazee (10:47):

They can you know, stand up for people, but this is where they can get a bad rap. If they are upset until they learn, they can overdo it. So in a meeting, they can, you know, call down the boss. They can, you know, they frequently get fired. They'll get, let go of, because people can't take their personality because they will speak the truth, their truth. Now this may sound like the next one. We're gonna talk about the one. I wanna draw a distinction right off the bat. The one ones who are the perfectionist that we're gonna talk about next podcast. They, they are really about finding out what the truth is, what the facts are, the eight it's more about their truth. So I mean, facts matter, but in that moment of, of reaction, it's more about this is not okay. And it's my truth and I'm go and it's to me to fix it. Interesting.

Bill Soroka (11:41):

Interesting. Yeah.

Linda Frazee (11:43):

Looks like some things are coming up for you, Bill. So what do you wanna ask a question or make any statements ?

Bill Soroka (11:51):

Well, I love hearing this because I personally am attracted to eights because they do speak their truth and you know exactly where you stand with an eight and one of the best ways I remember you describing it is you oftentimes feel them enter a room before they enter a room like their energy, their presence is just there. You were. I think you were going down the path though, talking about, especially from an entrepreneur per perspective of how, when healthy, this can really serve them, their vision and the, and their business because they are great leaders. And I love that. I mean, the, is it true that they're sensitive to injustice and unfairness and they really, they tend to be a great advocate. Mm-Hmm in that healthy mode. So I'll let you continue and go, go down that route.

Linda Frazee (12:45):

Well, that's, you're really right, because they will stand up. In fact, it's interesting when you're saying when we're talking about the anger, I I've got a bunch of quotes for them today. And one of my favorite ones is when I get disrespected, I get disrespectful.

Bill Soroka (12:59):

Oh yeah. gloves come off. Right? Yeah.

Linda Frazee (13:03):

And respect is a real key kind of, of, of thing for an eight. So the reason all of this comes up and here's, here's another interesting fact about eight. They seem well, I never did clarify the, the bad rap they get, they will, they have their anger. They're not afraid of it. They're not afraid of anybody else's anger and they're afraid to stand up. Well, you know, that scares everybody else because every other type, unless they get into a pinch for something that really matters to them is back up against the, a wall. Whereas the eight is saying that's not right. And all of that. And they come up with such force that it scares everybody. So then people back off, but I like what you said about, and they tell the truth as they see it. And they do take feedback, but not in a, not in a moment of anger, you know, you know, you can't, yeah.

Linda Frazee (13:54):

(inaudible). Yeah. Can't meet them with their anger and have them go, oh, I get it, but they will get it later. So so let's talk a little bit about, what's a, what's, you know, creating this and we've talked about the genetic predisposition, that possible factors of the family of origin. But the idea is that they think it's essential to be powerful, and invulnerable, in a world, that is not always just exactly what you said about injustice, but that power and, and vulnerability is because they are so sensitive and so insecure way down deep because they didn't get possibly from their family. Not always true, but very often the love attention, the validation for, wow, you're a real powerful person. Let's, let's celebrate this. Let's find some ways for you to express this. That would be good. They got a lot of pushback, a lot of, and even if they got it wonderfully from their family probably have had in school, other places, some, a lot of pushback.

Linda Frazee (14:54):

So as a result, mm-hmm, , they're really very sensitive. So of all the nine types, they're actually the most sensitive and, and sometimes the most insecure, but you would never know it because they've got a such big energy and the bigger their energy is the more insecure they are because they have to protect themselves because it's, they just do not want anybody to see that they could be weak. If, if I ask an eight that I'm doing a typing session with and say, what would be the worst thing anybody would say about you and say that I'd be weak. That I'd be a whimp. Oh. So of course makes it hard for them to admit to just anybody about their own mistakes to take responsibility. If they're on the lower level of health, once they can say, yeah, I blew that. You know, they're okay.

Linda Frazee (15:42):

So, so their life strategy is about taking action, correcting injustice, being strong, powerful, and in control and create an intense life because they have this intense energy. So it has to be an intense life, avoiding weakness in self while protecting those who are viewed as truly weak. Now, they, they will not they don't have any respect for people who are always whining and crying and you know, not really trying to do the, their best. They have no respect for them. And they'll call 'em out in a minute, but somebody who is really weak, wow. They are, will be the best advocate. Like you said, that you can imagine, you want to add something there.

Bill Soroka (16:22):

Yeah - Well, I was wondering if you can gimme an example of what you mean by an intense life. Like what does living an intense life look like to a and eight? So if somebody wasn't still, wasn't quite sure if they were an eight or not, what are some of the character traits or of intense life?

Linda Frazee (16:41):

Well, big is the big word. I mean, big and large and more is better in a major way. They often will have put a lot of money into a business and, and intensely work night and day make it happen. And let's say it falls. And, and then they, they sit down for about two days and then they, they do it again. Eights usually have a history of making a lot of money, losing it, all, making a lot of money. They're not attracted to other people who are calm, quiet if they let's say a single eight goes out and they, they go dancing and they meet this other person who's wild and crazy. And, you know, dancing on the table, they're with it. They're intense. This is the big life. And they they'll close the place down. They'll be the last two dancing on the table at three o'clock in the morning.

Linda Frazee (17:30):

They they don't want just a car. They want the biggest, a best car. They don't want just a house. They wanna mansion, you know, or, or, you know, it's gotta be bigger and better intense, intense. And you know, they, they are usually loud not, not always, but very often they have a loud voice. And sometimes they are larger than you know, they're tall, but not always. One of my favorite eights is a small little woman. Who's like five foot two. And yet when she comes in the room before she comes up to the door, I can feel her presence always it's like her presence when procedure,

Bill Soroka (18:10):

Is there any correlation to like adrenaline junkies or seeking? Like, are these the sky divers and the Bunge jumpers and the yeah. Wing suits and those kinds of things?

Linda Frazee (18:22):

Oh, absolutely. Because risk, risk takers. And so again, if you are an eight and you're thinking about a new business, or you're, you're being to identify with this, one of the best things that I suggest is do a feasibility study, which is not something eights would always like to do because and it's interesting because Bill is a seven he's the right next door to the eight. And, and he, he didn't do feasibility studies in his early years either , but the eight doesn't wanna be told anything by anybody. You know, they, they, they've got an idea and they think they know it all. And that's one of the traits that doesn't work for them is that they think they can, they, they, they can be know-it-alls. And so, but if they are more well developed or talked into it by a good friend, say, just check before you put all your money into this great.

Linda Frazee (19:09):

I idea. And just let's, let's find somebody qualified to do a feasibility study and see if this is really good. Like for instance, I'll, I'll make this story up for your, for your business. Let's say you have an eight, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna be a notary. I'm gonna do stuff all over. I'm gonna make tons of money. I'm gonna work seven days a week and it's just gonna be great. And they have the energy to do that. And they didn't look at the details, the details that have to go into it. Okay. So that would be part of a feasibility study for a notary. Let's sit down and look at the details that you have to go over because the, all of this is you, you can work seven days a week. You can go all over. You can make lots of money, all that's true.

Linda Frazee (19:48):

And in order to do it well, stay in business. You have to, you have to be able to willing to do the details. And then, you know, while you're in this enthusiastic state, so, well, of course I can do the details. I can do anything. Yeah. Right. But day after day after day, the details, the details, the details could kill. So you have to be realistic about it. So, and, and that by knowing yourself well, knowing your strengths and your weaknesses is really critical. And that's a lot about what Enneagram can show you in a, in a deeper way than almost any other assessment that you could find.

Bill Soroka (20:23):

Yeah, totally. It sounds like there, so whether their strengths would clearly be bold action, right. Hmm. There to jump in and do that. Absolutely. Yes. And then also you mentioned something though about, you know, the, you used a feasibility study as an example where they don't wanna hear from other people necessarily, but how does that play into delegation? Do they, do they, is there a correlation to not being able to delegate work and taking too much on themselves? Or are they really good delegators? How does that look?

Linda Frazee (20:57):

Well that's that would, of course be a general question because you know, once again, if somebody were pretty healthy, that's would be one of their first things they'd have to learn is to delegate. But an unhealthy eight thinks they can do everything. They think they can do everything and, and they don't wanna let go because it's control. You see the control is all part of it. And that's, that's one of the drawbacks of this type for people around them. They can feel the control mm-hmm . And so you know, as a boss, if they're healthy, they wanna give away that they wanna make other people, they, you know, they've learned to make sure that other people can do it, or as an entrepreneur, they can learn that look I'm bad at details. So I gotta get help with these details. I gotta get somebody else to help me.

Linda Frazee (21:38):

And now we've got, we've got a really good team. If you've got somebody who is, and they'll listen to them and they respect them, then they've got the details covered and they can do it. But otherwise delegating is hard. And so I'd say an eight who moves from an unhealthy to a more, at least moderate, healthy person you know, will, will have had to learn to delegate, or they they're gonna get bruised a lot. But you see, this is the, the, the funny thing about it, they don't mind getting bruised. And so one of my first in workshops that I did here in Phoenix, I had a, a large group in this room. And then I had them I introduced all the types, like we are on these podcasts and I had them get into small groups of which type they thought they were.

Linda Frazee (22:21):

And then I gave 'em a bunch of questions. Like they were, each group was supposed to discuss, like, why do they think they are? And what was their background? And you know, how to, as a show up and all that. Well, I got over to the eights and there were about seven of 'em and they were talking about all their wounds. They had, I mean, there wasn't anybody there that was any older than 45. And some of 'em had, you know, had a broken back and somebody else had had two knees popped already. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're just talking. Cause they all had done these kind things. They had pushed so hard, it was skiing. It was jumping outta planes. It was like hiking, you know, after dark and falling down Camelback mountain here in Phoenix. I mean, it was wild, the things that they done, you know, and it was almost like a badge of courage.

Linda Frazee (23:02):

So they were going, oh yeah, rod, I had both of my knees redone, you know, they didn't even get into the questions because of course this is the, I think they're, they're not good about following rules. Okay. Mm-Hmm now that's again a positive trait because of that bold action that someone can take when you're starting your own business, as long as you're honest about it. I mean, it didn't matter in that workshop. I mean, it's something I'll always remember, you know, that they didn't answer the questions. Right. But if it's about taxes, if it about showing up on time, if it's about following standards and all it does matter. So that's again a part that has to, to bring themselves back. So a couple of other things, where does their attention go? Well, their attention goes to power and control justice and injustice truth versus deception.

Linda Frazee (23:48):

What needs to be done now being respected and avoiding blame, being respected is really important. That's why that quote was about if I get disrespected, I get disrespectful because yeah, respect is everything. It's, it's a really important factor. And if somebody is being deceptive or not telling the truth, boy, they'll go after 'em right away until they get it. Which is a problem. If you have an eight boss who is like not, you know, not really showing up a honest and clear way. I mean and yet if you need that job, that that can be a problem.

Bill Soroka (24:31):

Is the is the eight one of those that has a really strong bullshit meter. Like they can just sniff it out.

Linda Frazee (24:39):

Well, it not in the same way of a six, a six is like, they they're so tuned to that. They, you know, they (inaudible) they see auras over them, glowing lights over anybody they, they will well this, let me answer that in a different way. An eight man or woman, who's going to decide whether he wants to be he or she wants to be friends with somebody will, if, if they kind of vet him to get like, okay, they're a pretty strong person. They'll start. Oh really? Yeah. They want to make sure that the person can stand up to 'em. They don't wanna be friends with anybody who can interesting. So they'll, they'll take some view that they don't even believe in just to see what the other person will do. And then when they, they push back and they will say, oh, you know, I don't agree with you. You can have any opinion you want to, but I don't agree about they're going okay, good. I got a friend  

Bill Soroka (25:31):

Isn't that fascinating?

Linda Frazee (25:32):

Yeah. So I kind of took a side step there. What exactly was that question you were asking me about? Do they … the bullshit meter? Well, the bullshit meter. Yeah. well, but they're also very good at, at having their own. I had what my fellows on a set of tapes we made once said he was a leader and some manager in some company and he said, I can get up and, and everybody will follow me and I'll lead him right off the cliff. I know what's going on. And I understand it. I don't said, and I have no clue, but he, because of the energy and the decisiveness, I mean, everybody else could, I don't know, what should we do? Maybe we should do this. Like, I know what we should do. We should all just climb over that rock and go for it. You know? Everybody's okay. Well, let's go, you know? And so they'll just fall right off.

Bill Soroka (26:25):

Yep. As long as you say it confidently enough, they follow. Right. Yeah.

Linda Frazee (26:29):


Bill Soroka (26:30):

So this interesting on many levels.

Linda Frazee (26:32):

Yeah. So this was a guy who really knew himself well and really was aware of that. And so when you talk about a meter, it's less about other people it's being able to kind of shine it on yourself and say, look, you know, what's the truth here? Do I know anything about this? No, I don't know. I don't have a clue, but you see that would make them maybe feel weak. If an undeveloped person would feel weak. If somebody said, well, what do you think, John? What do you know? And John goes, don't have a clue, you know, eight other types wouldn't have any trouble saying that, but an eight would say, whoa, I don't wanna say that. So well, what I think is, and just make it up. Mm. You know, how, how can I look strong in this situation?

Linda Frazee (27:10):

Right. So their core values are strength, power, justice, and equity. They want everything equal. And when I was talking about their attention it, this thing to just avoid blame to avoiding blame don't they wanna avoid blame, cuz that could be kind of disrespectful. And they will because they act so quickly, you know, again, almost all the other types, we're not talking about an emergency, but let's say something comes up that requires some action. The (inaudible) right there, and they've done it, they've done it. And it's because it's quick. So one of the the suggestions to mediate that is wait 24 hours before you act. And it's hard for them. But most of my clients who are eight have said that has saved them. And so many times, because they get an email and they're really irritated by it.

Linda Frazee (28:05):

How could they do this and blah, blah, blah, or text. And they just take their hands off and wait 24 hours. And the next day they, they reread it and go, well, I didn't realize they meant that, you know, and then now they can respond and this is something we could all use. I think that's a good lesson for all. Yeah. Yeah. I think everybody could use that, but you know that, you know that depending on where you are and you read something, how easy it is to take a offense and again, an eight can get themselves fired. They can get themselves, they can just take a situation. One, one of my eight said I could take a situation and make it much worse when I bring my energy to it. If I don't watch it. And so, but she said, I have to just sit on my hands and keep my mouth shut.

Linda Frazee (28:47):

She said, it's not easy. And another woman said, if, if I disagree with something, if I get an email and, and, and I disagree, I'm likely just to go into their office. If this is in a, a office where we all used to work in an office room, some of you remember and go in and just, just without thinking about it, land last, you know who the boss, anybody, you know, that's the stupidest idea I ever heard, you know? And then they feel better. This is the other thing. Because as I mentioned, this anger is something that comes up through their body as described, not innate, but I hear a lot about this comes up through their body and demands to be expressed. So they express it and now, oh, now I feel better. Good. But the bodies are on the floor. , you know, right.

Bill Soroka (29:33):

They feel relieved. And meanwhile, they've left total devastation in their way. Right.

Linda Frazee (29:37):

Exactly. You know? And so then they're going, oh, OK. Now I feel better. Hey, you guys wanna go to lunch and everybody's on the floor going to lunch and you kidding. I'm not going anywhere with you. Well, what's your problem, you know? And so that would be another sign about now the six that we talked about, a few, a few podcasts back and the eight or lookalikes, but here's the question that makes it biggest difference. When was the last time you were afraid of somebody's anger? The eight will say never, ever, right? Never because if somebody gets angry at them, it's like, da, da, da, da, da. Here we go. Good. Good. OK. And they just ratchet it up. You know, this is, this is kind of exciting thing, you know, but a six could, six can probe and, and, and, you know, ask a lot of questions and be irritating. But then when some gets mad at them, it's like, oh, I don't like that at all. You know? And then they back away. I mean, they might get defensive, they might push back a little, but they, they're not up for the fight.

Bill Soroka (30:30):

They're not looking for a fight. Right.

Linda Frazee (30:32):

No, they're not looking for a fight at all, you know?

Bill Soroka (30:36):

And so eight has armor at the ready. They're ready to go.

Linda Frazee (30:37):

Yes, it is. It, it armor at the ready and they also, you use a lot of armor words. I mean, like, you know, well, if I had a gun, I'd just take them out or, you know, well, I wish they should just drop a bomb on that, blah, blah, blah. I mean, there's a lot of, you know, these, these terms that are used for like, let's just get rid of them, you know, because this is the other thing they're black and white thinkers you're in, or you're out, you're good or you're bad, you're stronger, you're weak. And so a lot of the learning for an eight is being able to integrate some gray into their life. It's, it's a way that brought their brain works. So it's not just a matter of flipping a switch, but just the realization that there are a lot of things that just don't have a black and white answer. Right. And if right now, if you're listening to this and you're feeling really irritated and thinking that is absolutely not true, , that's probably because thinker, there are other types on this system that are also black and white thinkers. So, you know, eight is not the only one, but the eight comes down like, no, that's the way it is.

Bill Soroka (31:42):

And is there any level of, of like self righteousness, I mean, are eight open to their personality matching like this? Or is there a certain amount of blind spots on

Linda Frazee (31:57):

This? Well, there's definitely blind spots, but then we all have blind spots. So it isn't just the eight that would have a blind spot . The biggest blind spots would be, and of course their anger, the effective anger on others and and how their energy is. So you know, precedes them because they, you know, just like all of us, it's the way they've been all their life. And, you know, they've either received praise or, or, or maybe a promotion or maybe they've you know, been chastised or, you know, beaten or any number of things. But as far as you know, their openness, I would say I have a, I had an experience many years ago with an engineering company back in, in Maryland, as a consultant going in and teaching these things. And as often happens in a corporation, they, they, they hire you, but it's really, for one person, they had one person who was troubled, who was an eight.

Linda Frazee (32:56):

Well, he, I, what I say was troubled, I don't, I will say he was troubled. I don't know anything about his, his family system, but what, what, how he was disrupting things at work is he was a manager and he, if he was upset with somebody, he would just call him out in front of everybody. You know, he would get somebody walking down the hall from the restroom and just basically attack him and say, it was really a stupid thing you did, and blah, blah, blah, with a high voice, just really, really knock him down. And and he was a really good worker and he did a lot of good things for the company, but he was just socially really ruining things. And so the owner of the company hired me to come into these programs and they said, well, guys, the guy's name was literally John.

Linda Frazee (33:35):

And they said, you know, John probably won't even come. You know, he's already saying is stupid. You know, I don't need to do anything like this. I don't even want you to have these things. And I've told him it's mandatory and he's resistant and blah, blah, blah. Well, John was there and he was sitting in the back row with his arms crossed and his legs crossed, looking at the ceiling for the first time. But when we talked about the eights, he recognized himself and he began to come alive and he uncrossed his legs and his in his arms. And he was sitting on the edge of his chair. And he, for the first time in his life was able to take in feedback because the bad news for an eight is because they come on. So strong. As I said, it's kind of like a bad rap.

Linda Frazee (34:17):

The rest of us need to learn to take some of that energy and be able to stand up on our own two feet when we need to. But instead of doing that, we tend to back up. And so he'd never heard this feedback and I was this neutral party. So I wasn't the people he worked with. So he could be open to it. And at the end of that, he was a glow at just like, wow, never known this. Now I understand why people and gee, I've never got this. And he was carrying my, my bags and things out to the car. And I went back many times and he was the one who would be saying, okay, she's coming, everybody get in the room. Now we gotta have our meeting and he'd come out and say, can I help you carry your briefcase?

Linda Frazee (34:59):

And so this is of, of an eight really, you know, they desperately need, are they likely to just independently? I think I'll go to a workshop. Oh yeah. Well, they might listen to this podcast because that's, that's something that nobody would have to know they were doing. And are they open to growth? Absolutely. But particularly eight men can be very resistant and this changed John's life. So he, he later told me it made a difference in his marriage. You know, he, he was able because he was actually on the verge. He didn't know it, but he was on the verge of getting fired because even though he was making much money for the company, you know, he was, he was intimidating everybody else to the point where they weren't happy. And so that's another typing question. Has anybody ever told you, you were intimidating? Well, most everybody's, if you're a, a outgoing person, you probably have had some of that, but if you've had a whole history of people saying, well, I don't know, you were really intimidating. That would be another clue and not even being aware of it,

Bill Soroka (36:04):

That's the thing. And I think that's the hardest pill to swallow when we talk about these things and really it's the unhealthy side of all of these numbers. When we experience them out in the real world, we just assume that the person on the other end is, has made this conscious decision to be a jerk mm-hmm . And that they're just moving through life, plowing through people, cutting them down, or annoying them or yelling at them or whatever it is. And there's sometimes when that's the case, right? Some people make a conscious decision, but I have found in my experience, it is usually an unconscious motivating behavior. There's something going on that they haven't discovered yet. They're unaware of the emotional wake. They leave behind them. They're just going through life, the way that they always have. And it's usually driven by that. And I love that. We're talking about the eights here. It's usually driven by that four year old or that seven year old or that 10 year old little boy or little girl inside their brain. That's just made some decisions, built up some walls, and they've been functioning like that as an adult this

Linda Frazee (37:09):

Whole time. Right. In fact we have a a poster it's kind of old now. We, we did it probably 15 years ago. And I always, I had always said that an eight is like a baby baby in it driving a tank. Oh. And so we actually put a picture of a little baby driving a tank because that, yeah. Cause so that is the perfect depiction of what you said, because it's the child who is feeling so unprepared to deal with what it's going on and so vulnerable that their energy becomes a tank. And when you've got a tank rolling over you or coming at you, it's hard to remember. There's a baby driving that. Yeah. And that actually would not be a useful thing to say at the time. So listening to this and you think your husband and your wife might be an eight, do not say that that will not…

Bill Soroka (37:58):

Do not break rattler anything. Right.

Linda Frazee (38:01):

But, but remember it that there is a scared person in there. And you know, and at, in the moment, just get outta the way of the tank, of course, through some counseling and some help, you can learn to moderate both of you, but but you're really right. It is. It's not that people or most people, okay. You, you can, you can be an unhealthy type in any of these. And if you're an unhealthy type, but not, not often another interesting fact about eights, you might say, well, there's a lot of them out there in the world. There really aren't. And the statistics of which types are the most on the Enneagram, the eights are way down on the list. They're not as many of 'em. They're like somebody like three, 5% as best we can tell, not that the whole world has been you know, put into a system as, at this point, but there have been quite a number of studies that have been done on international level because, but they get the most press.

Linda Frazee (38:57):

So what you of their energy, cause they're loud, they're being doing big things maybe. Is that why exactly, exactly. Because they rise to the top. They're not gonna be at the bottom. They're not gonna be, they're not gonna be happy at the bottom and they're gonna rattle the cage until they're gonna get up higher, you know? And so they show up you, a lot of famous people. Sean Penn has suggested to be an eight. Now these are suggestions. I did not type them. So I don't know. Angie, who, who was married to Brad pit? Angie, I can't remember her last name right now. Angelina Jo Angelina Jolie. I saw her on one of those things when she was interviewed about having been an actress early and, and literally, I mean, I didn't, I saw, and it was of the days before you could easily just record things because I always wanted to get a recording of her.

Linda Frazee (39:47):

She was talking about how she just needed things to be intense. And she just had to, you know, if it wasn't intense, didn't matter and how she was intense, really sad and intensely, happy and intense with all of the things she did. And I mean, she used every word in the Enneagram as a, as an eight, you know? And and I think from, she's got a lot of kids. I mean, she didn't just adopt one kid. She adopted a lot. Now least I'm making this up. I don't know for sure that she's an eight, but that would be a demonstration. Yeah. Those, those are indicative of it. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Because we don't suggest you go around and, and, and type people, but those kind of people are out all the time. Now, the motivating energy that creates this big thing in the Enneagram traditional language is lust.

Linda Frazee (40:36):

It's called lust. I don't use that. I use Gusto because lust, I indicates to everybody a sexual energy and right. That might show up that way or it might not, it may not be. And it's, it can be, you know, mistitled so I it's, it's this Gusto, anything I'm gonna do, I gotta do big, you know? So it can't just be, it has to be a lot, you know, and it has to have to be well paid, you know? So you get a kid, an eight, that's gonna go out now. I mean, right now in the world today, very easy to get a job, no matter what anybody says, all you have to do is put your finger up in the air and you could get a job anywhere. And if, and it really a high rate, but I mean, like McDonald's is paying $18, $19 an hour and we'll send you to college.

Linda Frazee (41:20):

It's like, well, why I wanna do that? That's stupid. Why I be flipping burgers for that? You know? So an eight wouldn't do it probably. Mm oh. Another example of that I've used before. I'm gonna watch the time here. Oh, here, here. Here's another quote. I like for a woman, a strong woman looks a challenge dead in the eye and gives it a wink. That's an eight.

Bill Soroka (41:45):

Oh, love that. Yeah. love that.

Linda Frazee (41:48):

So another example of my work in corporate to America with this kind of system you know, companies gonna go under. And so they're laying off people and they, they announce, well, they don't announce probably it's rumored, you know, and maybe it's even in the paper, but nobody really comes in and says, okay, you know, we're getting rid of people or you're gonna be laid off, you know, and or 30% of you or whatever.

Linda Frazee (42:17):

Well, you know a lot of the people just hang around and hope, you know, they wanna keep their paycheck as, as long as they can. What does an eight do? What do you think an eight would do? Bill probably quit or buy the company. Right? Right, exactly. Exactly. Eight is not gonna sit around and wait because they want quick. Okay. This thing is going under. I'm not, you know, I'm not hanging out, you, it in the bud. Right. Right. And so they're the first one to quit or they're the, the one that's going to be, you know, like you said, go get some investors together, get their own money out and buy the company. If it, if they think it's worthwhile or, or whatever. So they're gonna take action right away. The one who will be sitting there when they come to the last person, the whole, you know, this is like the whole building is empty and there one person in the desk and they come in and say, OK, Bill, you know, it's time to go now.

Linda Frazee (43:04):

And they look up startled and say, what is the six who who's just loyal, loyal to the core and thinks, you know, can't happen to me. And so the guy with the red stapler in the loud cubicle. Right, exactly, exactly. And so here are two very strong types. Both of them, black and white thinkers, that seem to be very similar, but in everything with life, they act quite different because remember, while you're looking for yourself on this system, it isn't just what you are doing. Now. It isn't who you've become it. Isn't just what business you wanna go into. It's about how have you been throughout your life? Mm-Hmm what are some of the core things throughout your life? So remember you can't have been a five when you were a baby and you know, a seven while you were, you know, a teenager and now you're a nine, you know, it, you, you can, you have a relationship with five different numbers, which we talked about on the very first podcast and on our very last one, we'll reiterate some of that, but you've been at core the same person genetically, all along now, you can develop and improve and get more and more healthy and, you know, and spread your wings and, you know, and bring in other numbers that you're attached to.

Linda Frazee (44:24):

And ultimately the goal is to be able to have access more ready, access to all of the highest attributes of all these numbers. So that's the goal, but while you're learning it, you wanna look back and say, how have I been consistently throughout my life?

Bill Soroka (44:39):

Excellent advice for those who are on the exploratory path, Linda, anything that you'd like to close out on the, the eights with us? Well,

Linda Frazee (44:48):

I've got some interesting quotes. This one is from a man named Dr. Steve Maraboli I don't know who he is, but I got this online. I am self propelled, fueled from within. I appreciate people's opinions, but I'm not attached to them. I learned a long time ago that if I give them the power to feed me, I also give them the power to starve me.

Bill Soroka (45:11):

Love that last

Linda Frazee (45:12):

Line. Yeah. Really powerful. And here's another one. Do me a favor and don't sugar coat. Anything. I wanna hear your truth, no matter how raw and blunt it is, I wanna hear your thoughts, uncensored and unedited.

Bill Soroka (45:26):

It sounds like my eight friends. Yes. Right. They, they, it drives them crazy when I be there at, on the Bush. And this

Linda Frazee (45:33):

Is, this is an interesting one from John Lennon. Nobody controls me. I'm uncontrollable. The only one who control me is me. And that's barely possible.

Bill Soroka (45:42):

Wow. That's and that's so true. Yes.

Linda Frazee (45:46):

Love that. And from an these others are without anybody they're anonymous, stop wearing your wishbone where your backbone ought to be.

Bill Soroka (45:58):

. All right. Good. Yeah.

Linda Frazee (46:00):

And that's a good one because a lot of people who are entrepreneurs and wanna utilize their best talents and skills have a lot of wishes, but when it comes down to the hard things in life, like we talked about, and the is usually not one of them, they're up for the hard stuff. They're gonna do it, you know, but a lot of other people, you know, really won't. And so that's another appreciation for eights,

Bill Soroka (46:22):

You know it reminds me of one of my favorite quotes now from Robin Sharma in the 5:00 AM club is everybody wants to be a legend until it comes to doing the work that legends do.

Linda Frazee (46:34):


Bill Soroka (46:36):

And eights take that on.

Linda Frazee (46:37):

Yeah, absolutely. They're they're willing to do it. And then let's see here, I've got a few more, the question isn't who is going to let me, it's, who's going to stop me that's from Ayn Rand, and this brings up another, this next one brings up another point. I wanna mention, wow, we're, we're getting closer. I have a limit. And when you reach it, I dismiss you from my life. It's that simple,

Bill Soroka (47:03):

It's that flick of a switch, right? Yes.

Linda Frazee (47:05):

That's a black and white, you know, so let's say you have a friend and you're an eight and you're, you know, they're having some problems and you're kind of helping them and you're making suggestions and stuff, and then they just keep going down the tubes. And so, and so finally, that's it. You just dismiss. Hmm. So one of the things that eights need to learn is about more compassion. And what, what of, what that's all about is lack of compassion for themselves. So part of the healing for an eight is accepting and dealing with their own weaknesses, their own imperfections, the fact that they're not always strong, that they never were. And you know, you still, you have choices about who you unveil that to, but accepting it for yourself, the more self compassion and eight has for themselves, the more they'll have compassion for people who, who can't do what they do. And, and this is another thing eight will often say, well, I can just do it. And other people can't. And, and some of that's true, but some of it is pushing them ha themselves past incredible, incredible odds that will serve them sometimes. And sometimes so, and this one is from a famous gangster don't mistake. My kindness for weakness. I am kind to everybody, but when someone is unkind to me, weakness is not what you're going to get. Remember that about me Al Capone.

Bill Soroka (48:29):


Linda Frazee (48:30):

Yeah. And this one, I don't, this was another anonymous, but I love this. Throw me to the wolves and I will return leading the pack.

Bill Soroka (48:41):

Gosh. That's like, these are perfect. Yeah.

Linda Frazee (48:43):

Aren't they though. They're just really great. Yeah. And then the very last thing I would say, you know, to end with is if you have resonated with this for yourself I've made lots of suggestions for what you can do to start you know, being more honest with yourself, showing your weakness to trusted friends, waiting 24 hours before you act recognizing that that rise of the, that energy of anger that comes up. But the most important thing is kind of what you already said. It's laid your armor down, find somebody that you trust. It would be ideal if it's someone you live with and you love. But if it's just sister, brother, friend, whatever, find a place to lay your armor down, and that will serve you in the greatest way.

Bill Soroka (49:35):

Oh, what excellent advice, Linda, thank you so much for joining us again, talking about number eight on the Enneagram. I can't wait for our next episode.

Linda Frazee (49:43):

I enjoy this and I look forward to the next time.

Bill Soroka (49:47):

Thank you so much for listening to the Enneagram podcast.

Bill Soroka (49:50):

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