Bonus Episode: Pitfalls in Business by the Enneagram Numbers - THE SIX


Often called the Loyal Sceptic, those who lead with Enneagram 6, are gifted with abilities to spot problems and detect BS. Sometimes thought to be "worst case scenario" thinkers, their tendency to plan ahead serves the entrepreneurial world well. When unhealthy, they can appear stubborn and obstructive.

Guest Information:

Linda Frazee has over 40 years of experience as a professional speaker, business consultant and executive coach. She is the author, "Full Heart Satisfied Belly," and is founder of Positive Imagery, Inc., a personal and professional development company located in Scottsdale, AZ. Her professional training is in Transpersonal Psychology and Imagery.

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Episode Highlights:

19:39 The virtue or the strength of the six is courage.

22:33 The six are sometimes whistle blowers because they're so loyal to a fault, and they're our forever friend. So they don't trust a lot of people and they sit back and watch. But once they trust you, they step across that invisible line and they are there for you, loyal in fact, sometimes to a fault.

46:41 The blind spot of the six is important because trying to prepare for what might go wrong, they can come across to others as negative or obstructive. And that's always a surprise to them. So why doesn't everybody do that? Self-doubt may show and cause others to doubt them. They're always surprised about that because all they're doing is asking and all they're doing is questioning. Questioning may come across as accusatory may seem prickly to others. And they may think that they are hiding worry, but others see it.

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Linda Frazee (00:00):

But I know them, you know, so I'll say to somebody, well, tell me about the time that you jumped off the bridge and saved the kid. I go, oh, well, there were a lot of us up there. If I hadn't done it, somebody else would do it. And I'll say, no, no, they wouldn't.

Introduction (00:13):

Welcome to the Side Hustle Lounge. If you're looking for flexible ways to earn income, grow your in set and live the lifestyle, you've always dreamed of, you're in the right place. So lower the lights. Grab your favorite beverage and join your host, founder of and Amazon bestselling author of Sign And Thrive, how to make six figures as a mobile notary and loan signing agent, Bill Soroka.

Bill Soroka (00:47):

Cheers, and welcome back to Linda Frazee, where we continue our series on the Enneagram and the pitfalls that entrepreneurs can look for and avoid. Today, we're talking about the number six on the Enneagram. Linda welcome.

Linda Frazee (01:05):

So, it's good to be back again, Bill. And I'm eager to talk about the six. I want to give just a little background too before we get into that. The last podcast we did was for the five and this is a six and those three are the five, six and seven, which we'll do next time, are all about the mental or thinking, thinking center of the Enneagram. So I'll talk more about that, but I just want to rthemind people about that before we start.

Linda Frazee (01:30):

And as we often do, I want to give an interesting fact about the Enneagram and the interesting thing today is that the first large organization to embrace the Enneagram in the United States was a Catholic church that had been, I think I mentioned last time that the Franciscan monks had disseminated the information across the United States and the Catholic church got that and were just lit up with it because they saw the vices which are what we would call the challenges tied to the seven deadly sins; and the seven deadly sins being pride, envy, greed, wrath, lust, gluttony, and sloth.

New Speaker (02:09):

Now, since there's nine Enneagram personalities, deceit and fear will added to the Catholic teaching of the Enneagram so that the total two concepts fit together. And the Greek word 'sin' simply means to miss the mark. The mark is the psychological and spiritual wholeness of living fully and being who you came here to be. So it's quite interesting how the Catholic church took this on and and really used it. And it was taught widely across the United States. The first Enneagram book published in the United States was by a Catholic Nun.

Bill Soroka (02:44):

That is fascinating. That really is. I had no idea.

Linda Frazee (02:47):

Right. .

Bill Soroka (02:48):

And then here we're, it's got, it's evolved now it's, I mean, if you're on Instagram or Clubhouse, Enneagram is everywhere.

Linda Frazee (02:57):

Yes. Yes, this is over 40 years I've been involved with it and in the beginning, people just thought it was very strange and odd. But now it's everywhere. It's taken over, I think I mentioned this before, too. It is now ahead of the Myers Briggs and the Disc on a worldwide basis.

Bill Soroka (03:14):

Why do you think that is?

Linda Frazee (03:16):

Well, you know, as many things in our society do there's a critical mass. And if you keep, whether that's an entrepreneur working on getting enough leads or learning enough, or whether that's on a worldwide basis, there's you know, learning and going and, and spreading and so forth, especially now with the Instagram and internet and all of that. And suddenly it crosses a critical mass. And then it just kind of explodes. In fact, unfortunately it just dawned to me, it could almost be an analogy of what's happened with COVID. You know, as far as like, you know, it was just in a few pockets here and then it exploded. Well learning isn't that different, except it fortunately doesn't make you sick or you don't die from it. So that's a good news. But I think that's what it's about.

Linda Frazee (04:01):

And then the second thing I'd say is that the, what the Enneagram does is we've touched in each one of our previous podcasts, is it takes you into a deeper walk with yourself, a deeper knowing. So it's not just about how you show up at work. It's not just about a number it's about really, if you choose to go into it, go deeper into why do I do what I do and how can I shift that? And I think that because of the pandemic, I think the pandemic was another push across the invisible line of critical mass, because people had time, they had time to stop and think, and that's why this Side Hustle Lounge is so good for entrepreneurs because a lot of people stopped and thought, do I really like what I do? No, I don't.

Linda Frazee (04:46):

Why am I doing this? What else could I do? And so it's been a birth of a lot of new ways of thinking. And in order to be successful at that, you really have to know yourself. Now, are there people in the world who've been tremendously successful who never did any personal growth didn't understand themselves at all? Yes, of course. , You know, but if you really want to get out of your own way for those pitfalls that you talk about, it's best to know, you know, what it is, that's really running the show within you.

Bill Soroka (05:17):

I totally agree. And I think just from my own experience, anyway, I think I enjoy the ride lot more. Now that I have self knowledge and I understand why I do the things I do or where my brain is going. So I think that has greatly enhanced my experience as well.

Linda Frazee (05:34):

It gives you the power to make different decisions, and that's what we all need to do. I mean, we are, you know, when you finally get that you're going to step out and do something different, you really do need to know how to work with yourself and the power to make the best decisions possible.

Bill Soroka (05:48):

Yeah. So true. So true. And this just occurred to me too, as we're, as we're talking about this. One of the things that appealed to me about the Enneagram is that it's not, it's not like those other tests where you're taking or personality assessments where you actually take an assessment or you take a test and then it pigeon holes you into a box. It freaks me out a little bit.

Linda Frazee (06:09):

Mm-Hmm .

Bill Soroka (06:09):

That they're so accurate sometimes on some of those.

Linda Frazee (06:11):


Bill Soroka (06:11):

But with the Enneagram and you are teaching in particular, it's not about taking a test. It's about reading, researching each of the numbers, seeing what calls out to you, and then digging deeper and deeper and deeper. And I wonder if that plays into this too? It's not the traditional personality assessment.

Linda Frazee (06:29):

Well, it does play into it. Although a lot of people who are listening right now will have already gotten on and taken a number of assessments because they've been listening. And so they'll be going, and some of them will say, every time I take it you know, it tells me that I'm this one particular type or some other people will say, well, the funny thing is, every time I take it, it gives me a different one. So as we've stated before, I know you really believe in the assessments that you can take, because I think that it shortcuts the process and takes you down a path that might not be accurate. So the depth of the.

New Speaker (06:58):

Enneagram, the way I teach it is that you find this for yourself and you ask yourself deeper questions. And that's certainly what you've done, Bill. I mean, you've considered all these different types you might be and you worked on it, and I did too. So that's possibly why I value that so much. I spent a long time, you know, trying to find exactly what, and I was astounded when I found it, even though I had, was a therapist, myself, psychotherapist in teaching, it had lots of trainings. I was still like surprised at the extra pieces of my puzzle that I got from this training.

Bill Soroka (07:29):

That's the true power of that in that self-identification.

Linda Frazee (07:30):


Bill Soroka (07:32):

And that brings us right to the number six.

Linda Frazee (07:34):

Right? And so the six is a very interesting personality. Now, the six is in the center of those three types that are in the mental or the thinking types. And the six is often called the questionnaire, the enthusiast and the observer. An interesting thing about being called the, the questionnaire, the six really likes to ask a lot of questions because they like to know, they like to know because they don't want to be in fear, but they don't like to be asked questions of themselves. If other people just barrage, 'them like, well, why do you think that what's going on here? They, you know, they get very, very defensive. Now, again, these are generalizations, but you know, I'm going to give the overview of the whole thing. And then you can see what anybody listening, how they may relate to themselves or how they may relate to the people they live and work with.

Linda Frazee (08:22):

So once again, there are many names for this because there are many teachers, but the general essence is somebody who is questioning authority a lot, or being the authority, the enthusiast, they can, or that seven is the enthusiast, or they can be the observer which is their next door neighbor. They're also called the loyal skeptic or the trouble shooter. So there they are in that thinking type. So what they like to do is, they really want to make sure that they're safe because what's running this thinking center is trying to get everything in place so they will feel safe. Because underneath there's a lot of fear and doubt. Now the five and the seven are not as familiar with the doubt, but the six really is. I mean, there's a lot of doubting all the time. They're often brilliant mentally with an attitude of authority and authoritism.

Linda Frazee (09:19):

And sometimes they go against other authority and other times they bow to it. And they're often out of touch with the concept of emotional intelligence as they tend to be highly logical and rely heavily on the facts and their own interpretation of outside events, through the lens of skepticism and therefore mistrusting others' motives. They can also miss important emotional cues in their own bodies and themotions. And with the people they live and work with. Now, can't we all? Yes, but they have a whole history of this. Fear showing up as anxiety and often expressed as anger runs the personality. But [unclear] suggested to most people who are leading with the six, they're not initially in touch with that part of themselves. And they'll say, no, no, I, that isn't true at all. So as you know, I do coaching and training with people who are getting certified to be any Enneagram teachers.

Linda Frazee (10:10):

And so I encourage them not to ask people about fear. Not like, well, how has fear been throughout your life? Because most of the time people will say, well, I'm afraid of heights or I'm afraid of snakes or, you know, that mean they think outside events. But if you say, so tell me, what's your relationship been with anxiety through your life? That's sixes can relate to some anxiety and even then they may say, well, I get anxious when I'm going to take a test. I get anxious when I have to make a presentation. But you know, on that, after that first kind of typing interview, I will often just say, well, just, you know, notice in the next week or so the times that you feel a little thing in your body and that's a good beginning place for someone who thinks they might be a six. Now I want to go back over some basic ideas again here.

Linda Frazee (10:57):

So there's a biological predisposition for someone who is a six to be a little more afraid than usual. They are either again, they're a risk taker or they're going to push back, but it's about security and safety. So usually there's this biological predisposition, but then their family of origin creates a situation, that living as a child that, that makes that more intense. So they pull all the energy in, if we're talking about centers up to their head because they are usually very bright and highly intelligent and they're trying to figure things out all the time. So, in so doing that, that's where authority comes in because authority, of course, the first authority or your parents.

Bill Soroka (11:39):


Linda Frazee (11:39):

So if your parents were both very balanced in their authoritarian approach or discipline with their kids and could see that you were, tended to be a little fearful, there's a lot of positive ways that they could parent you and, and approach with you.

Linda Frazee (11:53):

And then of course your society that you're in. If you're in a society that thinks that children should be seen and not heard and emotions in the family, if emotions are not allowed, you know, all of those are factors of how emotions are processed in a family, if they are. So we have the biological, we have the family of origin, we have the cultural, and then we have the self talk. So all of that is a combination. And that's why, as we said earlier, it's a little more difficult sometimes to find yourself on the system. And I give everybody their opportunity to kind of peel that away and think about that because so much of the time, the things we do are just normal. So if there was, is an authoritarian parent and there usually is, it's very unusual that you're going to have two passive parents.

Linda Frazee (12:38):

Now it happens, you know, it happens, it's been known to happen, but, unless they're both alcoholics or drug addicts or whatever. But usually one person takes much more authoritarian role. And so if you're a little six, you do one of two things with that in order stay safe. Because remember, the underlying issue is like, how do I feel safe in this world? How do I, and when you're a kid, you can't just leave home and go get a job and live to somebody else. So you either go against them or you bow to them. Now in my family of origin, not my family of origin, but my, the family I created with my first home husband and my children, I had a three and a six daughter. And the three daughter, and their father to them was pretty scary because he was quite an authoritarian guy.

Linda Frazee (13:24):

And so my oldest daughter who was a three, just figured that out right away and bound to him and was cute and sweet and minded the rules and all. But the second one was a six and she was like, no way. I mean, I rthemember her being in a high chair and him trying to feed her something she didn't want, she turned her head and turned it the other way and just glare at him. Like, no, I'm not going to do that.

Bill Soroka (13:46):

Wow. You're not the boss of me.

Linda Frazee (13:48):

Right. Yeah, you're not the boss of me and I won't do that. And she was, she was wasn't even walking yet. So here we have two children in the same family, the same kind of circumstances and she's like, no way. So that would be an issue of counterphobic like, I'm going to take my power. Now a phobic six would say, okay, I'll eat it. I'll eat it. Okay, because I don't want to make you mad. Okay.

Linda Frazee (14:13):

Now, interesting thing about these two stances of counterphobic or phobic; and phobic would be like somebody who's afraid of authority so they just try to stay below the radar. Do what's necessary, just stay in the background, you know, don't want any leadership. Okay. don't even want to, like for instance, if they're in a corporate situation and somebody wants them to take a higher position where they manage people, they don't want to do it because you know, they'd be out there in front and then they'd have to tell people what to do and then they'd have to, you know, it'd be another level of responsibility. So I've had many clients who are counterphobic sixes who don't want to take their promotion.

Bill Soroka (14:48):

Can we talk a little bit about that? Like what's the Conversation going in a phobic six's mind at that point? Are they feeling resentful or are they, or is it, what's that conversation like?

Linda Frazee (15:01):

Well of course it's different for everybody, but I would say generally if they can catch the thread of it, it's a really about, you never know what authority's going to do. And I don't know what they're going to expext of me. And you can't trust them, you know, because their trust is a major issue here because the underlying issue, the baseline issue is fear. But then trust is right on top of that. So if I couldn't trust the people who raised me, which again may have just been a projection or it may have been that there were, you know, things that happened when you were a kid that were untrustworthy. So I don't trust myself to make the right decision. I don't trust the authority to make the right decision. And I don't trust the world. I don't trust the outer world and in the, the highest place I don't trust God.

Bill Soroka (15:42):

mm-hmm .

Linda Frazee (15:42):

So there's, there's, you know, a lot of sixes are atheists. Not, not all of them by any means, but a lot of 'them are because it's like, the phobic ones, because, why would I trust the, this invisible thing that people talk about was in, you know, a book that, you know, they just they're very skeptical. So the inner working is let's say, so you come to somebody and say, hey John, I think you'd be great, let's take you up to the next level. It's like, okay, I can't do that. I don't want to do that. I don't trust anybody. I don't trust myself. And so it's all about that kind of thing that's going on. And the interesting thing that when somebody first begins to find themselves on that, some of you that are listening right now might go, oh my gosh, I never really realized that I do that. Now here's another concept.

Linda Frazee (16:23):

Do we all do that? Sometimes of course.

Bill Soroka (16:26):


Linda Frazee (16:26):

You know,, every type has moments when they're going, I don't know if I'm enough. I don't know if I can pull this off. You know, I, what am I doing? I mean, is this just the imposter syndrome? You know, like every type has some of that. But if you are six, if you look back through your whole life, especially if you're a phobic six, you're going to find that this has been running you since you were in kindergarten. When you were at home with your parents, while your last job, your marriage, your relationship, all kinds of things, because the doubt in yourself and not knowing and just automatically assuming you can't do anything right or you know, is that. So now there's a complication to this because almost every good six is sometimes counterphobic and sometimes phobic.

Bill Soroka (17:14):

Oh boy.

Linda Frazee (17:15):

So, it isn't just like a phobic six is like, okay, there they are. That's it. You know, they're trying to get behind the radar and hide all the time. And suddenly maybe they move across town or who knows what happens triggers it and suddenly they're in your face going, no, I'm not going to do that. Just like I mentioned, my daughter turned her face, but now you're an adult say no way you will, I won't do that. Or they will, another way counterphobic six will come out on and righ,t and now with all this political issue and with the masks and all of that, they'll pick something that they don't agree with and they will go on a diatribe about it. I mean, you know, and they will get in the, they'll argue with people about it. Whether you should wear a mask, you shouldn't wear a mask or, you know whatever their issue is, just using that as an example.

Linda Frazee (18:00):

And they will feel completely like, and they will give you all sorts of information, how the authorities don't know what they're doing. And you're thinking, well, what happened to my quiet per person who wasn't saying much? Who is this person?

Bill Soroka (18:11):

They pick their thoughts.

Linda Frazee (18:12):

Yeah. That can happen. Some people spend years as a counterphobic and then years as phobic, or more often more often it's like suddenly they switch, you know? And you know, usually because the fear is greater and suddenly in a relationship with somebody like in a romantic or personal relationship, you know, you're going, who is this person? This doesn't sethem like who I thought they were.

Bill Soroka (18:38):

Mm-hmm .

Linda Frazee (18:39):

So any questions so far that it's coming up for you Bill?

Bill Soroka (18:42):

Well, another one of their traits is their ability or their, how they think about worst case scenarios often.

New Speaker (18:53):


Bill Soroka (18:55):

How does that play into this?

Linda Frazee (18:56):

Well, yeah, that's another interesting thing because in an initial interview with a six, or when you're trying to decide who, what type somebody might be, I might say, how much often do you do worst case thinking and they'll say, well, never, never, never don't do that at all. You know? But, if they are really dedicated to examining and observing, what's really going on in them, they'll frequently come back and go, my gosh, that's everywhere. Because and, but to them, you see, this is an asset, this is a smart thing to do because the world is a scary place and bad things can happen. And so let's plan. So they might, yeah, yeah. Be prepared. So they may come back and say, well, I don't know about case thinking, but I'm, I do planning. I'm planning all the time for this to happen. And well then what will I do? And if that happens, which makes them very on top of things.

New Speaker (19:39):

And lots of times counterphobic sixes or even phobic sixes will be ER doctors, which sethems totally contradictory to what I'm saying, because they want to be safe, but there's also adrenaline rush and then the planning and quick rush, you know, because you never know who's going to come through the door. You don't know what you're going to be faced with. And there's a sense of like, I can do that. Because here's another very interesting thing about sixes, the virtue or the strength of the six is courage. So here we have fear, which is, you know, the biggest challenge and doubt attached to it. But courage is their biggest one. And very often when I'm leading a panel of people who are sixes, and I say, well, tell me about something you've done that's courageous. They'll look at each other and go, never, no, I'm not courageous, but I know them, you know? So I'll say to somebody, well, tell me about the time that you jumped off the bridge and saved the kid. I go, oh, well, there were a lot of us up there. If I hadn't done it, somebody else would do it. And I'll say, no, no, they wouldn't. Because we always project. And so, but that instant, like I've got to do something. And while they walked on that bridge, they were already thinking, well, if , if anybody falls off, you know, what I'll do is I'll die [unclear] you know, they don't even know it. That's always at the back. So they bring a lot of great attributes to everything, to everything you do. And from an entrepreneurial side, a six who steps out into their own the next thing needs to make sure that they have some things behind them, that they know themselves well enough to have things behind them.

Linda Frazee (21:15):

I talked to a six the other day who was leaving a very well paid, long term job to do her own thing and was feeling the natural fear. And so I was saying, so what do you need manage some of that? Well, she needed some more money in the bank. Okay? Now, in her case, I know her well enough to know that she just needed some, some people will say, no, you know, I need some more money and it's like this astronomical amount that , that, you know, that would keep you stuck forever. But she just needed a little bit more so that she needed $20,000. more, Okay. Okay. Well, so then we talked about how can you get that? Because. then that's going to make her feel like, okay, in a worst case scenario, if I jump out there and this doesn't work, I've got that covered. You know?

Linda Frazee (22:00):

So some people will say, well, I just need to know that my health insurance is, you know, because if you're a six, you don't want to jump out when and you were terrified and yes, with all the courage in the world, you know, but then, then you've got this inner conflict between the fear and the anxiety and the courage. And very often sixes will freeze.

Bill Soroka (22:21):

Definitely. And I don't think that's unique to just sixes, but there's certain things that you can do set yourself up for success.

Linda Frazee (22:28):

Yes. Right.

Bill Soroka (22:30):

To make yourself more confident or comfortable moving forward.

Linda Frazee (22:33):

Yes. So, so just keeping in mind that this, the fear is the underlying energy fueling those who lead with this six and that the they're often called the loyalists or the committed or the cynic and the trustworthy, or simply as I mentioned, a loyal skeptic. And part of this is because the, they're sometimes whistle blowers because they're so loyal to a fault and they're our forever friend. So they don't trust a lot of people and they sit back and watch. And, but once they trust you, boy, they're, they step across that invisible line and they are there for you loyal in fact, sometimes to a fault.

Bill Soroka (23:13):

Mm-hmm, .

Linda Frazee (23:13):

The same daughter that I mentioned that turned her head when she was in the high chair, had a friend when she was in junior high, who just really took advantage of her and kind of bullied her and all.

Linda Frazee (23:24):

And it took a lot for her to finally let go of that friendship because they'd known each other since childhood and she was loyal, you know? And so therefore sometimes they will put up with a lot, but the whistleblower aspect of it is, is that they're loyal to the authority if they sign onto it. If they're in the military, if they're into a company, the government or whatever, they really are loyal and they expect everybody else to be. And if they see then that there is unhealthy practices or illegal things, they feel like the loyalty is to report it. And again, here we see the courage.

Bill Soroka (23:59):

Absolutely. You can see a lot of the strengths that would serve them well as an entrepreneur.

Linda Frazee (24:06):

Mm-Hmm .

Bill Soroka (24:06):

But also maybe some that would be misinterpreted by others as negativity,

Linda Frazee (24:12):

Right? Yes. In fact, in companies and in corporations once a company or an office is discussed is, you know, found out what type people lead with. And they've done that somebody is a six and will say, there's somebody named Ralph and he's a six, they all say, no, he's always, we, we have these meetings and then in the back of the room, he is, we're just ready to adjourn. We've got this new idea. And then Ralph says, raises his hand and said, well, you know, this'll never work. And everybody just no oh no, there's Ralph. You know? So but you know, there's always a seat truth in what Ralph says. It's just that nobody wants to hear it. And Ralph being cautious in the first place will usually wait till the last minute. So I advise the people to get Ralph in before the meeting and say, Ralph, I'm going to introduce this new product.

Linda Frazee (25:02):

And, you know, there's, we know a lot of good things about it, but, you know, you're really good at seeing what could go wrong and what I might be missed. So would you please look this over and then let me know before the meeting and and we'll use anything you see there, we'll talk about. Now that's using the strengths of someone who looking at worst case scenario planning can, can really dive in there and look at that. I mean, when you think about probably a lot of sixes have been responsible for the fact that the bridges don't fall down, that our roads are in good repair, that, you know, our airplanes are flying the way they are, because they are thinking ahead,

Bill Soroka (25:40):


Linda Frazee (25:41):

Or the engineers who have engineered all of this. So, and a lot of sixes will say, I'm not anti authority, most people in authority are just not trustworthy. So that's a little bit different way of looking at it.

Bill Soroka (25:56):

Yeah, definitely. That's totally fair though.

Linda Frazee (26:00):


Bill Soroka (26:00):

You know, I, for, and I'm definitely not an Enneagram expert. Right? But I've learned so much from my work with you. But, for me, and I know we're not supposed to do this, but I constantly, I'm trying to figure out who people are, where they fit on the Enneagram whenever I'm interacting. And I find the sixes the most easy to quote unquote diagnose, right? Like I can pick a six out a lot easier than some of the other numbers because of this trait of often worst case scenario or if just fearful to, or over, It's almost, they feel like they analyze things even more than I do. Is that a trait as well?

Linda Frazee (26:39):

Yes, there, that is a trait which is overanalyzing. And the unfortunate thing though, is there're similar other types, some of which we haven't talked yet about. The one and the six are lookalikes, that one is a perfectionist and they're wanting to get things just, right. So they're also big planners because they're wanting to make sure nothing goes wrong because they want to make sure that they've done it right. And so that can look like a six.

Linda Frazee (27:05):

And also we haven't talked yet about the eight, but there's a a certain kind of eight and a six that are so much lookalikes that it's very, very hard to tell. They are the only ones who can ever, you know, dice that out. And as you said, technically, we are the only ones who can really find ourself. But understanding the Enneagram helps you, when you get in contact with somebody who has a very different viewpoint than you do. Because then you can go, okay, they're clearly looking through different eyes than I am.

Linda Frazee (27:32):

And maybe they're more fearful, which makes you more compassionate instead of like, how stupid is that? Of course that's not going to happen, you know? And just like, there you go being negative. So the whole bit of learning about the Enneagram or the baseline principle is of course being more compassionate with yourself. And then second of all, being more compassionate with others. So let's talk a little bit more though about the different kinds of things that come up for sixes. And so their non conscious core belief is it's essential to be prepared to meet or avoid the potential hazards of life. We've talked about that they may have, if they're guys, they may have been a boy scout fits in really well with that, you know, be prepared and their core concern is being unsafe or insecure. So, that's why it really bothers them if they don't know what's going on, or if there's conflicting information. That really, really upsets them.

Linda Frazee (28:28):

If they're a researcher they'll just get on and start researching. But if there are some things, there's a lot of things in life, we just don't know unfortunately and that can really get them upset. I'm sure right now, a lot of sixes are struggling with the resurgence with this new variant, because, you know, here, we thought we went through this, we had these shots, or we didn't have the shots wherever you are on that. And now we can go forward and now it's coming, other things are coming back. And that, that would really upset a six. Did you want to say something about that?

Bill Soroka (28:57):

Yeah. Well, if we know that they are, their core concern, how could we communicate in a way that would be more effective if we know they're coming from fear and uncertainty, what would you recommend?

Linda Frazee (29:12):

Well, let's start with what not to do. The first thing is not to say, don't be afraid. That's never going to happen.

Bill Soroka (29:18):

Don't worry about it.

Linda Frazee (29:18):

Yeah. Don't worry about it. That's like lighting a match to a dry kindling. So that's insulting and all the rest, because they've spent their life thinking about things, planning about things. And they've been right a lot of the time, you know. They've been wrong a lot of the times too, but you know, they, maybe it's really important the things that they were right about. So that would be not saying, oh, come on, get off of it. You're always too negative. Don't worry about it. That's what not to do. So I would say, listen to them. So tell me more and sometimes just listening to them and then sometimes they'll say, oh, well, you know, this isn't really very logical because if they, if they're just talking to someone that they trust they're going to tell the truth about it.

Linda Frazee (29:58):

And then they themselves may say, wow, or if you were to say, well, it's interesting. I've never thought about it that way. Do you want to hear how I think about it? That would be a way of staying on your side of the fence and then sharing yourself and asking him, what can I do to help you resolve some of this worry? What, what do you want to do? So that's another thing. So, I think that making sure you don't say you're always negative. You drive me crazy, you know, or even if you don't say it, if you act it out, by removing yourself all the time or rolling your eyes hopefully nobody is an adult does that, but sometimes people do  

Bill Soroka (30:36):

Right? [unclear]

Linda Frazee (30:38):

So, I really get that you're afraid. So, let's talk a little bit about this and asking them, what would help? You know, what do you need from me now? And most of the time they're going to say nothing because they don't want to be helpless, and but if they've trusted you enough to say that they may just say, gee, I need a hug. Or I just, just need to change my energy. Let's watch a movie. You know, if it's a personal relationship. If it's a if it's a professional relationship in a company they might say, well, I'm just afraid we're going to go bankrupt if we spend this money on such and such. So then you'd say, well, I can't tell you that that can never happen. I mean, don't say, oh, that'll never happen because that they won't trust that.

Linda Frazee (31:18):

Say, I have plans. If we start running outta money, we'll do something. But yeah, that could happen. So but if it does, it probably wouldn't be for five years or something, you know? So I mean, if that's true. Oh, this is another big point. Don't lie to them because they have a bull shit detector like nobody else on the Enneagram. They have little, little, their ears perk. They know when somebody's, you know, giving them a runaround and not only do they pick it up, they go to the worst case scenario with it. And they, they won't trust you anymore.

Bill Soroka (31:51):

Yeah. It's hard to come back from that.

Linda Frazee (31:53):


Bill Soroka (31:54):

When they pick up that BS, there's, you're, you're in a different category,

Linda Frazee (31:59):


Bill Soroka (31:59):

Forever. It's hard to come back.

Linda Frazee (32:01):

Exactly. Pretty much forever. And so you, you know, you can tell 'them the truth. You know, I had a six ones, tell me, just tell me the truth. You know, don't beat around the bush. Don't, you know, try to say, well, I've got something to tell you, but I don't, it's hard for me to just say, what is it? That makes them crazy. So you just really want to tell them the truth, because they can handle the truth.

Bill Soroka (32:20):

It's interesting though. You find that they, their communication style when they're delivering information is a little bit different though.

Linda Frazee (32:28):

So in what way do you experience that?

Bill Soroka (32:31):

They don't, they're not always as direct or like you had mentioned earlier, they oftentimes wait and process for days before they communicate their feelings.

Linda Frazee (32:44):

Well, I think…..

New Speaker (32:44):

Can you tell I've dated the six or two in my time?

Bill Soroka (32:46):

Yes, yes. Yes. I think you have, I would say that it has to do with whether they're in a phobic or counterphobic stage because when they're in a counterphobic, they're likely to say this is the way it is and that's the way it's going to be and you know, boom. And you're going, whoa, wait a minute. You know, but if they're in a more of a phobic stage, or if they're afraid that they're going to insult you, lose you, if you or somebody's everything and they don't want to come off like that, or they've learned enough through their profession or through their personal life, that if you really blow people off, they get, you know, you can lose relationship or you can lose something. Then they may really spend a lot of time in their head trying to figure out how to present something to be safe.

Linda Frazee (33:28):

So you get both things. And very often this is another interesting thing. Again, all types, this can happen with all types, but they can be very, almost belligerent and over direct at work and very calm and not speak up the way they should at home.

Bill Soroka (33:45):


Linda Frazee (33:46):

Because they're either the authority at work or they're bucking the authority and they've got to make sure that everything is, is okay, safe there, especially if they're managing people because they want to make sure that their people are safe. Not only are they so, but they're people. So there's a lot of focus on that. But in their personal life, they are more heart connected. Even though sometimes you may not know it. You know, there's a bigger risk. Now that is, that is not always the case, but that can be because they're scanning all the time for danger and uncertainty and they're anticipating what could go wrong in order to avoid it. So if they're scanning for their partner to say, okay, are they listening to me? Are they taking this well? Or is this going to be a big altercation? You know, might they leave me? You know, because that's worst case scenario, then they're going to take a different tack,

Bill Soroka (34:35):

Fascinating way of thinking. Yeah.

Linda Frazee (34:38):

Their attention goes to analyzing imagining possible pitfalls, danger, mixed messages, and double meanings. That's part of that bull shit detecting, any mixed messages. You say one thing one day and another, and they're going to go, what now? What, what was that again? Yesterday you said so and so. So, and their core value is loyalty, duty, responsibility and preparedness, and their strengths are being reliable. Boy I'll tell you, they're going to do what they say they're going to do. They're prepared. They're dutiful, sensible, loyal, trustworthy, trust, seeking, committed, analytical foresightful, faithful, and courageous.

Bill Soroka (35:14):

I mean, everything that you'd want either in a partner or a, a business partner or a life partner, it sounds like.

Linda Frazee (35:19):

Right. Or just think about it. If you listening and you're thinking you might be a six, these are the highest traits you can bring to a, you know, an entrepreneur. Because you have to be loyal to yourself and you have to really be loyal to the process of what you've picked up. So you're not going to just abandon it right away. Now, of course, there is such a thing as being loyal to a fault sixes can stay in relationships that don't work for them too long. They can stay at companies where they're going down the tubes and they're the last one they're going, what, what, I mean, you mean this? We're closing the doors?

Bill Soroka (35:55):

Your doors are locked, what?

Linda Frazee (35:57):

Yeah. Right. Well, how did this happen? You know, because they haven't been a, you know, when you climb up into your head from a standpoint of taking all of your energy up into your head center, you're not focusing about the feelings that are going around you. So part of the way to bring yourself more into wholeness for a six is to practice various techniques of getting into your heart and speaking more about your feelings and also moving your body.

Bill Soroka (36:27):

Do you have anything specific about that? How can somebody move from their head to the heart? I know I struggled with this. You've helped me out so much. So what are some of the techniques?

Linda Frazee (36:36):

Well I would say for somebody who is just starting out is just closing their eyes, putting their hand on their heart and, and noticing your breathing and starting out for like five minutes and trying to get it up to 10 minutes over a period of time of just keeping your mind quiet and just focusing on your breathing around your heart. That's all. And when I give that to people like, oh, oh yeah, I'll do that. And they come back and go, I couldn't do it. So start out with, in if five minutes is too long, start out with two and you know, don't move it up until you're able to stay with it. Even though it's like a bungee cord, particularly for a six and it is for everybody, but it's even more so for the mind types, you know, you right up to your brain.

Linda Frazee (37:16):

Okay. But what about this? I forgot to do, I got to call, okay, come back down to your heart. That's why putting your hand on your heart is a good way to just bring it back down here and just feel your breathing. because here you are carrying around this wonderful, this tool with you every single day that we just take completely for granted is the fact that we're breathing. So that's the first thing. And then the second thing would be not on only getting in touch with your breathing, but taking some deep breaths because the first thing is just to notice your breathing and be with your breathing from your heart. And that would be breathing so deep that you get some air down into your belly. So you take deep breath and out. So that would be another good thing to do.

Linda Frazee (37:56):

And then of course moving along if you can into guided meditation, meditation, any kind of thing like that, and then Tai Chi would be good, a body movthement, just taking a walk. Certainly you could go to a gym and, and get on treadmills and do all of that sort of thing. That's not a bad thing at all, but if you're just starting out, start with something manageable that you, that you will do that you like to that and try to be present to your body when you do it. Because see if you're out butt you've done that before gone for a walk and did so much in your head. If you came back and I said, so what did you see on your walk? You're going, I don't know, what did you walk? I dunno, in the neighborhood, you know  

Bill Soroka (38:37):

Yep,. Done that with [unclear] too. But Linda there's, if there, if there are sixes listening right now, or even fives or five, six, or sevens, the mental types, they're struggling with the same thing I did with this. And it's that logic is king mm-hmm , you know, I, I rely on my brain. I fought this so hard. This going down in my belly stuff. I was like, this is bull shit too. Like this, I don't want to go down. What do you, how do you go down? I'm in my brain and this is how the world makes sense in my brain. How can people overcome that conversation happening in their head right now?

Linda Frazee (39:16):

Well, it's a process just as it was for you. It's like you have to, you have to develop some trust and probably some trust in authority and maybe their authority would be you because you've done that and you still struggle with it, but you know, you've gotten the value of it. So somebody who also has a mind type that has, has learned to do that because they have to really believe that. And well, and you know, the other thing is experience. So I have another mind type person who I've just worked with recently. Who's had a hard time with this in the past, but has gone through some difficult emotional things. And it's the only thing that soothed him is being able to get out his head because head was just, you know, buzzing, like this could happen and that could happen.

Linda Frazee (40:00):

And what are we going to do with that? And it was like the anxiety of it all was in his brain. I mean, literally he had to get out of that. And it's the only thing that finally the sort of surrender to the fact that there's more to me than just my head. And the good news is there's a lot of media focus right now, more so than there has been in years about the value of mental health.

Linda Frazee (40:23):

And just recently we had this young gymnast, the one who was expected to win and she chose not to do things because she wasn't in the right head space, which meant that she knew she wasn't in the right body space and so she stepped out and there's a lot of people who are, you know upset about that. But as a young woman, she really made a statement about wholeness. So you know, it isn't just like you can't be a gymnast and just be in your head and you can't be a gymnast and just be in your body, you have to be in both places.

Linda Frazee (40:59):

So once again I think that if you pick up some of the greater cues that we're getting in the media, whether or not you trust that, just noticing that we're getting more, it's getting more and more acceptable to make sure that to be a healthy person, that you have to be in touch with your body and your mind. Your is, you know, a good and not suggesting anyway, you should cut off your head , you know, right. Or just say, well, this doesn't matter or this isn't important, but it is an important thing to have your mind and your body and your instincts, which we'll be talking about another day all running in together.

Bill Soroka (41:37):

Yeah, definitely. I think that's been probably the greatest gift too, is just that realization almost that the, the brain is a tool mm-hmm and it can't, it does, it's not the end all be all it doesn't know everything, you know, it's still looking through life through my own lens. so connecting to the body. And you told me something too you know, the body doesn't lie. Mm-Hmm So when you do connect to that, you get to what the real stuff is going on. So it's been valuable.

Linda Frazee (42:06):

Exactly. So many times. Yeah. Somebody, how are you? And they say, I'm fine? You know, and I always say fine is not a feeling, you know, it's, it's just a, it's a nice if you're in an elevator, that's a good thing to say. But if you're talking to somebody who really cares about you, that's not really a valid answer. Because how your, your body will tell you say, you know, you're okay, but you're really not. And there's more harm that I think that as we go older, there's another thing that happens. You pay the consequence for not paying attention to your body. You know, your body does, you know, it has aches and pains and you know, and, and when you're young, you think, oh, well, I'll get over it and you do. As you get a little older, you know, get over it as fast and all the time the body is screaming.

Linda Frazee (42:49):

So that's another reason to learn, to get outta your head. You may have heard me say this before, too, which is that, you know, you, you don't believe everything you think. Mm. And that's, that's a hard thing to get away from if you're a mental type, because again if logic is king and you come up with this great logical reasoning, then how could that not be true? Well, it's because your brain is, is just your brain and it's, you got lots of ideas, but they'er not all true. Same thing was true with the heart types. You don't believe everything you feel, you know. Well, somebody was insulting to me. Well, maybe they were, maybe they weren't, maybe you were feeling irritated yourself, you know? Right. So again, and then we'll talk about the instinct types, and so all of that is in there as far as, like you have to have a view.

Linda Frazee (43:41):

One of the things Enneagram does is allow you to step back and self observe. And that's not something that has been a popular thing to do until now. And I think that's, again goes back to the COVID 19. I think it's allowed us time to step back. It's forced us to have time. Although certainly lots of people went home and did lots of drugs and drank a lot and, you know, did things that they didn't observe. But if you're listening and you were someone who sat back and said, hmm, how do I really feel about things? That's a good step in the right.

Bill Soroka (44:17):

Absolutely. I think that is a true gift.

Linda Frazee (44:19):

Yeah. It really was. It was a great pause. So let me give you some more things about the six. So if you're still wondering, well, what else is there about a six? Well, I think that doubt and uncertainty are the sticking points. So you might ask yourself, how often do I question myself? Do I question other people either in your mind or literally, and how often do I get second and third opinions on things? Like, what do you think, you know, because often sixes will come up and say, what do you think about this or that? And there's a, a speaking style of analytical and questioning sometimes, hesitant while other times bold and confident express doubt, concern of worry. But the interesting thing about it is I mentioned as we started out that sixes will ask a lot of questions.

Linda Frazee (45:06):

Well, what time will we go? When is it going to be, who's going to be there. You know, what's the subject? What are we going to talk about? You know, is it going to be cool? Is it going to be hot? I mean, you going, I don't know you, but it's all in about being safe, but they don't like to have the questions asked of them, which is a very interesting thing. So if you start doing the same thing with them, it's like, oh, I don't know. Don't don't, don't question me, you know, and part, part of that, especially is if you ask, well, how are you feeling about this and how are you feeling about that? Because that's not readily accessible. So another tip for a, someone who thinks they might be a six would be to read emotional intelligence. Mm-Hmm because there's ways for you, there's a number of books out that are all good, that you can begin to develop the, the other sense.

Linda Frazee (45:52):

And you're using it already, because you've got a bull shit detector and that's not just in your mind, that's in your body. But expanding on your own emotional intelligence so that you have more than just one center working so well. So a body language thing for a fearful six anxiety is, is more it in speech and body language is more protective, warm, and more engaging than the counterphobic six. Counterphobic six is the body language is sometimes more challenging sometimes called prickly in speech and demeanor. Behavioral, they often look like a type eight, which will be talking about in the next few weeks and they want to avoid helplessness or being betrayed or aborting or submitting to potential danger and to authority or by challenging it, which is the counterphobic.

Linda Frazee (46:41):

And there some are predominantly one or the other, as I mentioned, sometimes they'll spend a long time in one or the other and then they'll switch. Now the blind spot of the six is important because trying to prepare for what might go wrong, come across to others as negative or obstructive. And that's always a surprise to them. So why doesn't everybody do that? I mean, if we all did that, we wouldn't have these problthems. Right, right. And self-doubt may show and cause others to doubt them. And they're always surprised about that because all they're doing is asking and all they're doing is questioning. Questioning may come across as accusatory may seem prickly to others. And they may think that they are hiding worry, but others see it. Yeah. Because it's in their body.

Bill Soroka (47:24):

Yeah, exactly. It's really tough to hide that. And I, I love that you suggested the emotional intelligence piece too. Because I think that would help them communicate those questions in a way that didn't automatically put the defenses up, the people are asking of. Right. And I think that's the biggest challenge I've seen happen is guard just goes up because it feels like they're questioning the other person's intelligence mm-hmm or authority or challenging their authority. And that's not really it at all. Right. They're just, they're poking holes in the plan that probably need poking.

Linda Frazee (47:57):

Right. In many case. Exactly. Yeah. So some of the things that they can get triggered by, which is what you're talking about is being pressured. Like I want you to make a decision tomorrow. Okay. So we're going to go on this vacation so we can go to this one or that one. Which one are you? Which one do you want to do? Oh, wait a minute here. Or lack of genuineness. Okay. And because of their bull shit detector, somebody's like trying to sell 'them something or you're trying to sell them something, you know, the walls go up.

New Speaker (48:25):

Abusive or incompetent authority. That's a big one. These are triggers, feeling frightened, being told not to worry. We mentioned that and others who ignore the downside, unexpected unexplained change, betrayal dishonesty. So it's interesting for those of you who are, who again are wondering if you're a six, it could even show up as an unexpected change, like you say, well, let's get in the car. We're going to go to the bank. On the way the passenger say, let's say the six is driving. The passenger sees Starbucks and says, let's stop at Starbucks says, no, no we're going to the bank. And you're going. Yeah, but the Starbucks is right there. Right. Right. Turns

Bill Soroka (49:02):

On the way, you

Linda Frazee (49:02):

Know, all you have to do is go through the driveway. No, no we're going to the bank and you may go, what? What's that all about? Well, it's an unexpected change. So the way to handle that is to say before you leave, although, you know, if you're a spontaneous type, you might not think of this, but you could say, gee, well, we're going to the bank you know I'd sure like a Starbucks, if we see one, why don't we stop? And they may even say, oh no, no, we don't have time for that. But then when you do, they may say, oh, okay. Yeah, there it is right there. It's right there. So you want to plant the sead. Yeah. But dropping it on. I'm like, okay, let's just do this now quickly is really not something that they appreciate?

Linda Frazee (49:38):

Now I want to talk about at worst, what they look like at worst, they're worried and fearful, suspicious, contrary and obstructive, defensive, doubtful of self and others, prickly, antagonistic, and accusatory and sarcastic.

Linda Frazee (49:51):

But what helps is moving into trust and courage, getting a reality check, talk with a trusted person and other and check out fears and doubts for reality, get clear guidelines for action. Notice when thinking substitutes for action. Cause some, this is another big one. They will have great plans, but it's more difficult to take that step out. So as an entrepreneur, they may be in one of your classes Bill or, or have an idea. It might be a great idea, but sixes have been known as other types as well to miss the timing for that great idea, because they were still thinking about it and planning and somebody else did it, or, or they lost the opportunity.

Bill Soroka (50:30):

Paralysis. Yeah.

Linda Frazee (50:31):

Yeah, exactly. So setting timelines and action checklists, anything that you can set up for accountability, take a step by step approach instead of magnifying, the whole, especially negatives imagine best case scenarios. That's often what I tell people who have begun to identify themselves as the six is says, say, okay, so notice if you go down that worst case scenario, you know, that's been a lifetime habit, you're going to do that, but then come back and go, no, I'm going to look at the best case scenario. So what could happen on the other side of that? And that's always more difficult for them, but that could be a learned trait, something that will balance things out much better.

Bill Soroka (51:07):

I'll tell you. I just recently had a conversation that is a clear, but resistant six. And he has a major decision that he has to make. And I said, all right, let's make a pro and a con list. And we had to start with the con list, first of all, cause pro wasn't going anywhere. So we started with the con list and there, it was con after con after con after con. And I said, OK, all right, totally understandable. Let's move to the pros. And it was like, silence, crickets and then we got a, we got a pro. I had to throw some prompts out there and looked for 'them. But eventually we got on to some pros that way, but it was really a complete shift in his thinking. It's just not used to thinking that way, but at least was open-minded to do so.

Linda Frazee (51:56):

Right, right. But that was a very good way to do it and let it go with the cons first. And then, you know, you, you say, come on now, there's got to be some, some pros here, you know, that would you, you've learned how to work very well with that. That's great. Yeah. So, so I want to talk about what helps for a six. Yeah. Moving into trust and courage, get a reality check. Or we talked about this and, and so I already did this take a step by step approach. Okay. But at, at best, when a six is not stock, they're loyal, they're trusting, they're courageous, reliable, hardworking, cooperative, practical, keen, analytical mind, community building and humorous. Something that's forgotten is they have a good sense of humor. So I've got some some memes and things about sixes that I want to share here. As we get to the end here; overthinking the art of creating problems that weren't even there, they'vet been known to do? Yep. If you're going to rebel do it with purpose. love it. That was my, my daughter in the high chair always have an escape hatch and an escape plan and sixes is usually due. And this one, show me disloyalty and I'll show you detachment.

Bill Soroka (53:08):

Oh yeah.

Linda Frazee (53:10):

So if the, if the, if the authoritarian starts to be disloyal, then and this one was from one of my clients, I've got 99 problthems and 86 of them are completely made up scenarios in my head, but I'm stretching about for absolutely no logical reason.  

Bill Soroka (53:26):

I love it.  

Linda Frazee (53:27):

And telling me to calm down is the fastest way to piss me off.

Bill Soroka (53:31):

yeah. That should be a t-shirt. Yeah. Right.

Linda Frazee (53:35):

yeah, right. Yeah. That would be, that is, and the last one is, discovering the truth about ourselves is a lifetime work, but it's worth the effort. A ship is safe, even the Harbor, but that's not where ships are for.

Bill Soroka (53:47):

Yeah. I've always loved that quote. That is great.

Linda Frazee (53:52):

So I, I want to encourage any of you that are thinking you might be one of these sixes to investigate a little bit further, begin to notice these things we've talked about with yourself. And know that you have, have a lot of good traits because to go forward, but you know, it's this old adage about anything new. It used to be when we talked about this with sales, the hardest door to get through is your own front door. And now it would be turn on the computer or whatever, but, but just knowing that your loyalty, if you switch the loyalty from the, from the authority and put it back to yourself, that you have every capacity, your tenacity, your loyalty to yourself can get you, you know, learning and growing and doing just what you need to do.

Bill Soroka (54:41):

I think that's such wonderful advice. And I'd like to close out too, because of all the numbers, I think the, when I've introduced the Enneagram or talked to people, they, they sethem to almost be ashamed of being a six or resistant to being a six. And I think it kind of gets a bad rap sometimes. But if people are listening that are thinking they're a six take these words that Linda just spoke to heart, because this is the qualities that you bring to the table in a romantic relationship and definitely in a business relationship are powerful beyond measure. And that's when Linda talked about those qualities and traits, that's exactly what I would loo`k for in a partner that the loyalest people who stand behind you, no matter what, the ones that will stand up to you and tell you that you've got problems with your plan, that you need to look, that's powerful. Linda, any more closing words?

Linda Frazee (55:45):

No, I think that's exactly right. And I would say that I find that there are two sets of people when they think they might be a six and a lot of them are say, that's me. Yeah. That's who I am. Yeah. I get it. You know, and they just get it right away and don't resist it at all. And others through their own eyes only look at the negative, but that's, you know, the thing is you can do that with every type. Yeah. Because every single type of Enneagram has flaws because we are human and we all have flaws. There's not any perfect person out there. And you know, the one you don't want to be is usually the one you are. So once you've listened to all of these of the podcast and you think, oh, I'd like to be this one. And I'd like to be that one, but I don't want to be that one. You need to look. Yeah. You want to look at that more closely.

Bill Soroka (56:33):

That is so true. I've heard that so many times. yeah.

Linda Frazee (56:38):

Well, this has been a joy. I look forward to doing more and we're just moving right along. Have a good day.

Bill Soroka (56:44):

Linda, thank you so much for sharing with us again. Today, we talked about the number six on the Enneagram. On our next episode, we'll be talking about the seven, the enthusiast my favorite. Thanks Linda.

New Speaker (57:03):

Thank you so much for listening to the Side Hustle Lounge podcast.

TOTO Pet Insurance (57:06):

You know, if you follow me on Instagram and social media, you already know that my pets play a huge role in my life and I include them as part of the family. They are part of my why Dexter and Violet brings so much joy and love my life that I always want to make sure that they are well tended to and healthy. That's where my Toto Pet Insurance policy comes in. TOTO was voted best pet insurance company in 2021 by Forbes Advisor. And it's known as the pet insurance company with a heart and without the gotchas.

TOTO Pet Insurance (57:43):

There's no network of obscure vets that I'm forced to choose from. So I get to pick my pet's doctor. And then depending on the policy I select, I can be reimbursed up to 90% of the vet bill and they make it easy to use. You visit any vet. You submit a claim, you get cash back. It's pet insurance finally done, right? If you'd like to support the show, get coverage for your own fur babies, and maybe even give yourself some peace of mind at the same time. Get an instant quote today on Toto's easy to use website at that's TOTO.

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This episode was produced and marketed by the Get Known Service

Episode music provided by Lofi Panda Music


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