Bonus Episode: Pitfalls in Business by the Enneagram Numbers - THE FIVE


Often referred to as "Observers," the Five on the Enneagram is often quiet and paying attention. If you want to know what's really going on in an organization, talk to the five. When unhealthy, a five can be reclusive and dismissive. Learn more on this episode with Linda Frazee.

Guest Information:

Linda Frazee has over 40 years of experience as a professional speaker, business consultant and executive coach. She is the author, "Full Heart Satisfied Belly," and is founder of Positive Imagery, Inc., a personal and professional development company located in Scottsdale, AZ. Her professional training is in Transpersonal Psychology and Imagery.

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Episode Highlights:

12:11 I hear from parents all the time, my kid goes in their room and they don't come out. And I'm worried about them. Well, for some kids that might be a major sign of depression, but a five - that's their normal habitat. That's where they wanna be. They wanna be there. They would like to be in there by themselves. That was a recharge place for them because their core belief is it's essential to conserve personal resources in a world that often demands more or supplies too little.

16:16 Fives - Their strength is they're tremendously observant, logical. They're perceptive, knowledgeable, reasonable, curious, reflective they're many times experts. They like to be experts analytical and synthetic. That means they can put all these different ideas together and come up with new unique ideas. They're self reliant pondering, and they have a very dry wit and fast on their feet.

31:11 With all the types, we tend to project whatever our type is. However, we see the world from our little goldfish view. We think that everybody else sees at the same and it's always a shock to find out they don't.

--- Full Raw Transcription Below ---

Linda Frazee (00:00):

When I say resources, people often think of money and money is one resource, but it's really more about energy and time and space.

Introduction (00:09):

Welcome to the SideHustle Lounge. If you're looking for flexible ways to earn income, grow your mindset, and live the lifestyle you've always dreamed of, you are in the right place. So lower the lights. Grab your favorite beverage, and join your host, founder of and Amazon bestselling author of “Sign and Thrive: How To Make Six Figures As A Mobile Notary And Loan Signing Agent,” Bill Soroka.

Bill Soroka (00:44):

Cheers, and welcome again to our guest. Linda Frazee today, we are continuing the conversation on the Enneagram and Linda is a life and business coach and an Enneagram expert, Linda, Welcome. Thank you so much for being here and sharing much of your knowledge about the Enneagram.

Linda Frazee (01:04):

Well, it's good to be here as we continue our journey through all the various nine numbers of the Enneagram.

Bill Soroka (01:11):

Yeah. And we've been kicking off each episode of this Enneagram with kind of an interesting tip about the Enneagram tell us something that most people might not know about this.

Linda Frazee (01:21):

Well, I find it interesting from the standpoint since I'm in Arizona. And so is Bill. The Enneagram on the west side of the United States was, was brought was disseminated through a very interesting way. In the seventies, a a woman named Helen Palmer who became the grand Dom of the, the Enneagram on the west side of the United States, had a small gathering of people at her house. And in that, in one of those people, and I don't know how he got there. I don't know how he got the invitation was a Franciscan monk. And there was nothing in print at that time. And so she just presented it as it was in her living room. And this monk took notes and disseminated it clear across the United States. So it's the, wow, it's the element of like where do things, how do they get where they are? You know, we think about the internet. We think about all this information traffic that we have now that wasn't even available. And so it was disseminated completely by one monk who was a traveling Franciscan monk, and just took it all across the United States.

Bill Soroka (02:29):

I find that interesting and kind of kind of beautiful too, cause I love origin stories and this, this knowledge and this wisdom, this whole concept has passed down by for what thousands of years through Sufis and other cultures as well, just passing that down verbally. And then it kind of lands the same way in the United States. And now of course it's taken off like crazy

Linda Frazee (02:56):

Right now. It's everywhere, every single place. In fact, I had a call from one of my clients. Yeah. The other day, who was telling me what number her pets were and said that she was having an discussion with some other people who I know they're down all down in Mexico. And so I think you should do some sort of a workshop about what number your pets are . And so that was an interesting,

Bill Soroka (03:19):

Yeah, no kidding. Don't do that.

Linda Frazee (03:21):


Bill Soroka (03:23):

That's gonna episode all its own.

Linda Frazee (03:27):

So I use that as an example of how far it's reaching animal kingdom.

Bill Soroka (03:36):

It's fascinating. Well, and today I believe we're are moving right into number five on the Enneagram what's going on there.

Linda Frazee (03:44):

Well, we've now moved to another center, so I'm gonna do, do a very brief review. Remember there are three centers of intelligence in the Enneagram there's the heart, the head and the belly or the heart, the head and the instinct. And of course we all have a all three, but we have a a default system where, which type you are you will have a more instant response, a default if you will, to one of those types. So we've been in the heart center, we started out with the two, three and four, which are in the heart center. We've now moved on to the five, which is in the mental, or we call the head center sometimes. And, and of course everybody has a brain and everybody has a, you know, a head. And we all think, so it's not like the five, six and sevens who are the three in that center are the only thinkers among the Enneagram.

Linda Frazee (04:35):

However, they do have some similar features and they do on very quickly with thought about everything. So a couple of things about them, they're called the thinking based types because they're focused on systems and knowledge and very often you know, you might find yourself as a, as a mental type or a thinking based type. And you, you think everybody does that. I mean, especially if you watch other people who don't seem to think about what they do before they do it, it's like, what's wrong with those people? Don't they think about it? Well, no, maybe they don't maybe they're they feel about it, or maybe they just instinctive respond to it, but the thinking base thinks about it. It might even be seconds, but you think about it. And the goal of all that you is to ameliorate fear, because fear is the emotion that is most prevalent in the thinking based types. Now, again, we all have fear, but they each have more fear and they handle it in different ways and it looks, they look a bit different about their fears, but they are all dealing with fear. The, the idea behind this is if I can figure it out, I'll be safe. And the five was like,

Bill Soroka (05:47):

Go ahead. Yeah. I was just gonna say, is it like using logic to dispel fear

Linda Frazee (05:54):

To, to some degree and that of course is a problem because fear is not logic logical so there you go. You know, so that, that causes a problem in the first place. So you know, there's so many wonderful things about these thinking types, as far as especially the five and the seven have a way of grouping together, disparate ideas and coming up with wonderful things. The five and the seven are very, very witty and fast on their feet. And the fives have a wicked sense of humor just hysterical, but you don't often see it because they're quiet about it. Whereas the seven is out there, you know, speaking and, and sharing themselves if five can sit back, but what they say can crack up a room. So it it's really, they're really quite delightful. I have a lot of, lot of many positive traits and the seven the, well, I'll talk about the five, the five is the observer, and we'll talk more, we're gonna spend a whole hour talking about them and they're seeking knowledge and avoiding depletion.

Linda Frazee (06:55):

And so we'll talk a little bit more about what that is. And so their fear is about, there's not enough. And so I have to preserve myself and the way through this is knowing if I know what's going on, I'll be safe and I'll make good decisions. The six is their next door neighbor is so in the thinking base types, their, their focused on preparedness to avoid helplessness. And, and so the, their great fear would be if I was helpless, if I couldn't do anything, that would be awful. And so, as a result, they're always trying to think about what's next planning. There's a lot of planning, planning for the possible worst case scenario, because they just feel like unconsciously it's gonna happen anyway. So let's get it planned out. The sevens are seeking options. They're looking at options because they don't wanna be trapped in any, they're like a cat.

Linda Frazee (07:44):

You know, if you have a cat and you close the door, the cat wants out. And if they go out and you close the door, they want in, they just don't like closed doors. Let me out. The cat says, I wanna come and go when I want to. And so, so it is with the seven, they want the option to do what they wanna do and feel their freedom. And they get, they get fearful. If those options are closed off because they're trying to avoid pain. So you see there's fear in all of these, there's some similarities. And then there's some vast differences and some very specific things that each type focuses on. So as we move into the five, it's interesting, a little bit more about this sense of depletion. So now it's interesting because Bill, the moderator here is a seven and we haven't gone into this a lot, but he has a connection to five. And so tell us what comes up for you when you hear this Bill?

Bill Soroka (08:38):

I think five is probably my strongest connection and I know we got to at our, at your workshop on Friday, we got to talk about this a little bit, but it is it's where I go. I feel like as a seven, we have two speeds and I love how Judy said that. Or Jodi talked about this. We have two speeds, 100 miles an hour, and then zero. And the zero is my five. I retreat into my five that's when I don't wanna answer my phone, I don't wanna respond to texts. I feel like I've just gotta protect my energy and recharge myself.

Linda Frazee (09:08):

Yeah. I got a number of interesting five quotes for today and lemme see if I can find that I want on this specifically. I don't get mad. I disappear  

Bill Soroka (09:20):

Yeah, I can't wait for that.

Linda Frazee (09:22):

So, so what happens if a five is really and five actually can get mad and explode because they have a connection to eight, but most of the time they just disappear. It's just like they go into the wall, they go into the bedroom, they don't come out, they go in the basement, they go upstairs, they go wherever and, and they don't want to be pulled out. I've often said that when five does that, they're like a turtle and they pull my hand into the shell and do not put your hand in there to grab them out or they'll bite

Bill Soroka (09:54):

. And, you know, I think it's instinctively what people wanna do. Right. They wanna, they wanna reach in and they wanna help and they wanna cheer you up and it's right. Yeah. I'm not, I'm not looking for cheering up. That's I'm quiet. And that's, I oftentimes do this on vacations. Don't vacation to run around and hit all the hot spots. I kinda sit and stare at the ocean or sit and stare at the mountains for a little bit,

Linda Frazee (10:20):

Right? Yes. Yes. I think that it's, it's really interesting. And so it's good to hear that your vivacious and outgoing host here has this aspect of him. And so I think it we at our last one, and it might even be an extra one. We do Bill, we should at least talk about the parts of all of this. I'm gonna be interested to hear how the feedback is when people are just listening to this and they don't actually have the visuals in front of them. So how visual you are will help because we'll talk about that some and and, and maybe we can have some way to get them get access to that. Yeah,

Bill Soroka (10:58):


Linda Frazee (10:59):

So let's talk a little bit more about how this all comes up. Well, genetic predisposition, remember, so this, this five child has this genetic predisposition to be more observant than the average bear, to feel like they need less things in the world. And that the, the world is naturally intruding on them. My grandsons as a five and literally when he was a baby, he'd be crying and we'd be carrying him around, trying to, you know, comfort him and everything. We'd lay him in his crib and he'd go, oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. He wanted to be by himself. and it was like, your instinct is of course is to say, oh, the baby's crying, you know, but no, no. He was like, oh, please, thanks. Let me, let me lay down here just by myself. I'm fine. If he quit crying in an instant .

Linda Frazee (11:43):

So, so there's a genetic predisposition shows up as, you know, very, very young. And then the family of origin comes in and the family of origin often for the five is that they feel intruded on, you know, in one way or another with either literally or figuratively that they don't feel like they have enough space that could be psychologically, emotionally, physically, or all three, or just a projection for them because they need more quiet time than the usual person. So, you know, I hear from parents all the time, my kid goes in their room and they don't come out. And I'm worried about 'em well, some kids that might be a major sign of depression, but two, a five that's their normal habitat. That's where they wanna be. They wanna be there. And they, they wanted to be there before they had a computer before there was internet.

Linda Frazee (12:29):

They a five would like to be in there by themselves. That was a recharge place for them because their core belief is it's essential to conserve personal resources in a world that often demands more or supplies too little. Now that's an underlying unconscious belief. So the, you know, nobody sat them down and said, okay, let's talk to you about this. This is the way the world is. This is what comes up from inside them. Like, I need space. I need to preserve my resources because you never know what could happen here. Now the core concern is having not having enough time, energy, and resources to meet their own, their own life's demands. Now, when I say resources, people often take of money and money is one resource, but it's really more about energy and time and space. So that's really critical. And their life strategy is to minimize needs and wants be self-sufficient and, and protect their time and energy and acquire knowledge because this one of all types does really believe that knowledge is power now it's, it is true that that's true for everybody on sub level, but the five really, really believes that their attention goes to what might intrude on and drain things or, or on their energy or their energy or their valued resources and being competent and knowledgeable.

Linda Frazee (13:50):

Very often fives will have multiple degrees, have a client here in in, in town now who see has three degrees. And he just went back to school. Again, he, I mean, these are the people who love being a student cannot get enough learning. And just the whole idea of doing the homework and learning new things, just lights up their brains in exciting ways. So they just really love it. And and so you you'll often find that they have multiple degrees, but they don't go around shouting it. They might not even have 'em up on a, on their wall. They might have five master's degree. They might have a pH two PhDs, but they may never tell you that you'd never know it.

Bill Soroka (14:30):

That's the key difference, right? Between that and a three who's achieving for acceptance, a five just wants the knowledge for themselves.

Linda Frazee (14:40):

Right. And there is, and there's a competence because then they feel like that they have a resource, they have a resource of information. I've been watching jeopardy a lot lately. I've never watched it and I've gotten hooked on it. And I swear a lot of them, well, they have to have photographic memories. That's number one. But number two, I think a lot of 'em are fives because they have, you know, they, the broad base of all the information on there is incredible. I mean, geography, history, ancient history, the Bible, I mean, it's just like uncanny what they come up with. Amazing. So it's that knowledge, it's just like this thirst for knowledge. I mean, even for somebody to have to do that, I understand that when they go on jeopardy, these great big encyclopedias, they study it. I mean, so yeah, you know, you have to have a certain mindset to even wanna do that.

Linda Frazee (15:29):

And they're, they're all pretty much older adults. Well, not older, I mean, 20 and 20 and not. So a lot of people would, a lot of people would say I'm through a school, please. Don't, you know, getting through colleges enough. Don't, don't ask me to study that or study to the degree they would have to. So the core value for these fives is reason. Their very reason, knowledgeable learning and insight. One of the most exciting things for a five is where things come together and there's new insight. It is suggested that Einstein was a five. We don't know because of course he was not type with the Enneagram to our knowledge, but it is he's frequent suggested that he would be an example of a five. Now their strengths is they're tremendously observant, logical they're perceptive, knowledgeable, reasonable, curious, reflective they're many times experts. They like to be experts analytical and synthetic. That means they that's, again, they can put all these different ideas together and come up with new unique ideas. They're self reliant pondering, and they have a very dry wit and fast on their feet. So very often. And go ahead, Bill.

Bill Soroka (16:48):

I was just gonna say, well, listening to some of those, especially being able to essentially become the expert, like have that initiative to learn things inside and out, but then connect the dots that other people may not connect. I can clearly see value in entrepreneurship there.

Linda Frazee (17:06):

Oh, absolutely. Yes. And, and, you know, that's really important because they can get overlooked, which is fine with them. Fives don't mind getting overlooked, cuz they quietly are in the background knowing what's going on. So any kind of organization that I have ever been in, I will look around and find the fives. Even if long before I knew the Enneagram I knew I knew how to spot them or before I took it to the corporate world and then I'd ask them what's going on in this organization. And they would tell me all sorts of things because they're not busy with their hand in the air. They're not trying to impress anybody. They're not trying to make a statement. They're just sitting back and watching and just pulling up all sorts of information. So that makes go ahead.

Bill Soroka (17:51):

Yeah, no, I was just gonna say, I can totally see the value there.

Linda Frazee (17:54):

Well, and so then if they decide to go off on their own, they've got it. I mean, they don't have to, you know, steal information. They they've been acquiring it. They've been looking at and watching for what doesn't work. This is another thing that's really important about fives. They're really brilliant at standing and watching other people's mistakes and then they, and so they'll know not what to do, you know? And, and so many, the rest of us are watching other people's mistakes and, and actually do the same thing or, you know, run off the cliff or, or get excited about something and and say, oh, well, I, that won't happen to me, but fives are like, Hmm, okay. I see what they're doing. I don't wanna be like that. Not gonna be like that.

Bill Soroka (18:36):

How do, how does a typical five make that decision? How do they know when they're ready? Like how do they know they've learned everything they need to know to take a step forward or do they get lost in analysis

Linda Frazee (18:46):

Paralysis? They do. And that's, that's an interesting suggestion depending on how healthy they are and how many risks they have learned to take that would probably be you know, the determining factor. There is a tendency toward analysis paralysis because obviously they're thinking they're analyzing a lot, you know, they, they, you know, if they're gonna buy a new car by the time one year has gone by while they're still trying to decide whether this was the year they were gonna buy it or not. So, so now not everybody, but that is one challenge. So the good news is if you have a five that you're working with or you are, you're feeling like you may be a five, you're gonna really analyze things and you're gonna have the knowledge, but you have to tie that to your heart and to your belly, because just knowledge by itself is not always enough information.

Linda Frazee (19:37):

And of course, whatever, whatever center we're in, we think, well, this is, this is it. You know, this is how I make all my decisions and this is true and right, cuz we've been doing it all our life. I think I've, I've said this before, but I'm gonna repeat it. It's like talking to a goldfish. If you could have, imagine a goldfish and a bowl and you said, okay, goldfish, tell me about the water. The, the goldfish would say what's water. I mean, they don't know what water is. It's just where they swim. And this is how it is with our way we make decisions. The way we approach anything is the way we pro we approach everything and we've done it all our lives. And so we don't even know we're doing it. It's there. That's one of the beauties of the Enneagram to begin to sort of dice that out and unpack that.

Linda Frazee (20:17):

So you can stand back like a five and look at your own life and go, oh my gosh, I didn't realize I did that. So it using that illustration as a five, what they would do is say, oh gosh, you you're right. EnneagramI've had many times in my life where I just, I researched for so long that I missed the opportunity. And then I, and then hopefully if that awareness becomes comes up, then they go, okay, so this time I'm gonna, I now know that I'm a good researcher, but I also have to pull, I have to pull the plug so that I can actually take the next step.

Bill Soroka (20:51):

Yeah. I love that. And that really symbolizes the, I mean the whole point of learning this besides just, it's fascinating, right? And learning four pieces of information, which I love, but the whole idea is not to put ourselves in a box, not to like bundle ourselves up in the five box or whatever number we're talking. Right. Really to kick the walls down because we might already be in that box, but just stepping back and looking at it and going where we need to go into those.

Linda Frazee (21:21):

We can't say that enough because it's like that the tendency is to do .. to follow our wrong assets. In other words, as a five there's a genetic predisposition, then your family of origin comes into it and then maybe your teachers do, and everybody's telling you you're smart and you're really good. And gee, you're a good thinker and blah, blah, blah. And so, and you are, and so here you are, but there's more to the story. And so you are in a, your own little box that you've created. And the, the idea is to knock down those walls, because you're just leading with one of these. You have all of these types within you. This is your strongest one. This is a genetic predisposition. Doesn't mean you're stuck there,

Bill Soroka (21:59):

Which leads us right into when strengths become weaknesses. So what are the, what other challenges in pitfalls of a five in business?

Linda Frazee (22:08):

Well, there's lots because their desire to guard things is a problem. And, you know, because if you're really gonna go out there as an entrepreneur and share something, you have to be able to share it and not hold onto it such as information, time, energy the privacy can be a problem. Privacy seems like it's, it's essential to their survival. And so let's say that there's somebody who is gonna go out in the world and start sharing things and, and, you know, with a new idea, they're gonna go out with a new idea or a new product, some new kind of approach to life. They have to really break down some barriers to believe that it's okay and that it's safe, that it's not gonna get taken from somebody that somebody is gonna run off with their, excuse me, their idea that they're not going to be overwhelmed.

Linda Frazee (23:00):

See overwhelm is a, is a big fear for a five. And so I would say whatever occupation be they entrepreneur or somebody who's starting a new job or whatever. Having a you know, blocking time is really critical because that way and blocking time for them to have this time of like staring at the wall, if that's what they need or you know, playing a game on their computer or, you know, whatever it is that feeds that sense of being by themselves, reading fives are usually big readers. They almost always have a book or a kind with them that they can read with. And so really an understanding what it is that feeds the, the energy back up, because they really feel like people empty me, I have to get away you know, to refill is, is what a five would say.

Bill Soroka (23:56):

Well, let's talk about that for a second, because I think that's absolutely critical and how that is perceived from other people can sometimes be damaging to a relationship, right? So how their inter interpersonal relationships work when a five is being drained when around people, it doesn't make the other people bad. It doesn't make them wrong. They're not doing it on purpose, but how is that a trap of a five is not knowing how to communicate their needs that way and maybe coming a off the wrong way.

Linda Frazee (24:26):

Absolutely. I would say that, well, you can't heal or work with anything if you're not aware of it. So the first thing to do is be aware of it. So what this looks like, let me give you kind of good, better and best for somebody who is volved does not know that they have been a five that they don't know what they're doing. What they do is they just closed down or they go away. So in the middle of a conversation, you could be having a sitting on the couch, having a really good conversation with somebody and they get up, you think they're going to the bathroom. They don't come back or they've gone in the bedroom, they've gone to bed, you know, and you're going, hello? What happened? You know? Oh, and they say, well, I got tired and you, and so you'd wanna say, well, could you have told me, because there's a feeling of being insulted and abandoned and you know, not appreciated and all kinds of things.

Linda Frazee (25:14):

And depending on the, the breadth of the conversation you were having, it could have been an important conversation. In fact, if it was an emotional conversation, that'd be even more likely from the five to just leave. But because they're, they're generally not really aggressive, they're not going to, you know, say, well, I don't like this conversation. I'm going to bed. They're just gonna disappear. Remember what? I don't get mad. I just disappear. Okay. So that would be someone who's totally unaware of how they respond to other people. They don't, they don't realize, oh, they know how they respond. Don't know what that looks like to the other people. And they're caught up in their own reactions and they're unaware. So that would not be good, but the, the, the better would be for them to discover this. And just to be able to say I'm getting really tired. I'm sorry. Interesting conversation. Let's try this later. I've gotta go to bed. Okay. And believe it or not, that's like three sentences. That is hard. That is a lot for a five to learn because it's almost like their jaws clutch. It's almost revealing. It makes 'em vulnerable. You know, they're sharing themselves, but , if, if they have to write it out, I'm tired and hold it up. sometimes I literally have people do that.

Bill Soroka (26:29):

Just, just have a laminated card. Like hit my limit.

Linda Frazee (26:33):

I'm tired. I can't take anymore. And then the next thing would be in that one, it say, we'll talk about this tomorrow. They're, they're kind of hoping that the person will forget, especially if it's an emotional conversation and that they'll never have to go back to it. But if they say I'll talk to you tomorrow, they really have to do it. So that, that brings up another issue. The important thing there is that they learn that they're not gonna die. Now. That sounds crazy. But every one of these types on the Enneagram has some threshold where they feel like if they go across it, they're just gonna die. I mean, it's, it's not rational. It's not practical. The one feels like if they're not right, if they're not right. And if they aren't considered that, they're right, they'll die. And the two things, if they, if they don't take care of people and the disappointment they'll die, and the three things, if they don't have any prestige, people, don't love them.

Linda Frazee (27:23):

They'll die. And the four thinks that if everybody, if it doesn't see them as special and unique, they'll die. And the five thinks that, you know, so we could just go on and on and on. So here, the five just thinks like, you know, you want me to tell people how I'm feeling? I mean, there's this immediate, like, pullback, you've gotta be kidding. This is my precious resource. I didn't have to share this with anybody. But if you're in a relationship, a romantic relationship or a business relationship, or, you know, out in the world with people to some degree, you've got to be able to do that. So the good news is in this world, the computer and, and the internet is five best friend because, you know, it doesn't take that much energy to send an email or, you know, send a text.

Linda Frazee (28:12):

And so, however, you're gonna get one word answers from fives, that little baby that I told you that I was putting down in the crib is now 22. And if I say, give, you know, a fairly long text and ask nobody, he say, I'm fine. Everything is fine. You know? Yeah, everything's good. I got it. Mm-Hmm , I mean, that's the kind of answer, you know, one time he said to me, when he was a teenager, how long did it take you to type that and I said, that would so get back. So there's now I wanna go to the best. So the first thing is to recognize the awareness that, that you actually hurt other people's feelings and you break up relationships and, and you miss you, you create a sense of mistrust when people, when you just disappear and with, without any, any acknowledgement of what's going on.

Linda Frazee (29:08):

So you learn the awareness, then you learn how to step up a bit. And even in your fively way say more. And then the, the best of course is to be able to just say, hi, you know, my name is Joe. And you don't have to say this literally, but if you say, you know, I have a tendency, you know, I'm kind of an introvert. Most fives are introverts. There are some extroverts, and a lot of them are actually actors, which is interesting. Cause they can go into a persona and be a great actor, but then when it's over, they go back as a five. And those are usually the actors that you hear about that are not, they don't have a public persona out in the, the, you know, in Hollywood, they live quietly in Montana or , you know, yeah. Some place quietly on a ranch or something, you know, they don't have to be out in front. They don't wanna have people drive by so they can and all of that. But they're, they could be great actors. So the best is to be able to step up and just say, look, I'm an introvert. And so I wanna work with you and, and you know, what works best for me is that we have meetings of no longer than an hour, if that's true, or if you have an issue, email me and I'll get back with you in 24 hours, you set the stage of that.

Bill Soroka (30:26):

Very direct and specific communication. I love that. And I love that fives can take it, take responsibility for behavior that either serves them or doesn't serve them in their business. Cause the reality is, if you're in business, you it's going require relationships with other people. And so it's real easy to, you know, slip into your cave and just say, this is just the way I am deal with it, but you really want your business to hit different levels. You're gonna have to include other people. So you can kinda outta your shell a little bit where also see them value here too. Linda is when you with a five, it would be really easy to take some of this stuff personal. But if we realize where they're coming from, maybe we won't take it so personal too.

Linda Frazee (31:11):

Absolutely. That's true with all the types because we tend to project whatever our type is. However, we see the world from our little goldfish view. We think that everybody else sees at the same and it's always a shock to find out while they don't. You know? So then when we encounter somebody who is just the opposite, let's say you're extraordinarily extroverted. And, and you have this relationship with somebody who's terribly introverted. You think, well, gee, they just have to grow up. They just have to get out there and try things and then they'll be extroverted and the introvert is going, will they ever just be quiet and sit and relax? You know, so, but the truth is they're just being who they are. And, and so when we get that, it really is easier than not to take everything. So personally,

Bill Soroka (31:56):

What do you say to a five or somebody who might think they're a five in listening right now who has the desire to create a company, maybe even be a CEO or a business that's all on them, but very heavily reli reliant on re relationships, but they're not the charismatic CEO types that we see in the news and the media all the time. Maybe they are more quiet and introverted. What, what advice would you have for them?

Linda Frazee (32:26):

Well, first of all, it's just fine to be who they are. That's number one. And if they're in a company where somebody else needs to be, if there needs to be some you know, charismatic person out there, you know, find somebody to go out there and do that. And don't try to be that person and show up in the ways that work best for you. Being the power behind the throne is, is actually another really good and powerful place to be. And and, and many, many organizations have been like that. That there's somebody that is backed behind everything, just knowing what they're doing. I, and I was gonna say this earlier, too, no matter what your job is, if you're having to deal with people, either on the internet on your computer with zoom, whatever your, your video conferencing kind of style is.

Linda Frazee (33:15):

I think of five, the biggest thing for a five is knowing their limits of what they're gonna do. It's back to what I was saying about blocking time. So let's say they're going to go on an intense business meeting. They have three meetings in one day, and they're gonna be intense about important things. They're gonna need some time in between if possible and afterwards, you know, have quiet. So let's say let's say this is a person who is married and then they go, they go home afterwards and their spouse says, oh, you're you forgot. We're having a party tonight. that would not be good. But if, if that would be like, well, okay, I'm not attending. Okay. Or, you know, maybe again, if we go good, better and best, the lowest level would be like, I'm not coming so I I've, I gave it the office.

Linda Frazee (33:59):

There's no more. Okay. That would be one. The, the, a higher thing would be okay. I had a really hard day at the office. I completely forgot about this party. I'll greet people and then I'm going to have to leave. I'm just gonna, I'll tell people, Jim glad you're here. And I had a hard day and I need to tend to something which is themselves. You don't have to say what, and the best would be that you would've had that on your calendar in the first place. And you would never schedule three business meetings on the same day. Your spouse was having a party at your house because, and of course, there's gonna be times when you know that overlaps, but you really have to, you, you can do very well and survive quite well if you have for that quiet time. And it could, quiet could be with your spouse, with your kids, with your dogs, your cats doesn't mean you have to be, you know, isolated in a closet, but it does mean that you have to take time to say, look, this is just who I am. I need to refill.

Bill Soroka (34:57):

I think I think that was one of the most valuable lessons I ever realize. And I can't say that I'm 100% about it. You and I talk about it all the time. I constantly overbook cuz I'm, I lead more with seven. So I always wanna, I love seeing my calendar full, but I've got this really strong connection to five. So the challenge that I have is comparing myself to other high performers, other people who are doing big things, they just seem to go from event to event, to event. They can speak in five different audiences at five different cities and they just seem to go on forever. And I thought that was how I was supposed to be, but that's not how this is for me. I've learned that I, if I do a speaking engagement or if I have a full day of signings, you know, where I'm booked from 7:00 AM to 8:00 PM, those are all little mini performances in some way.

Bill Soroka (35:52):

So I come out of it, just feeling completely drained. And I have to build in sometimes two or three days in between to really recoup. If I, if I can do that, if I can fully recoup, otherwise it builds up. And one of the, your quotes that I always love that really made a difference for me is that you've gotta deal with stuff when it comes up. It's usually emotional stuff, but if you, it builds up and that exhaustion is gonna catch up at some point, it doesn't go away. You might, I might get up. I might go to work. I might function just fine. And if I get in a little rhythm and I get that adrenaline rush, I might be running through making stuff happen, but I'm gonna hit a wall at some point.

Linda Frazee (36:33):

Oh yes. Yeah. There's so many things that come up for me about that. And I, the first is that a lot of people are feeling that after coming out after the pandemic, because it was a five Lee existence. In fact, a lot of my five clients said, you know, now everybody else is living the way I have for the, that I live every day. Right. And so, and there was a, there was a meme I saw on Facebook. I loved that was it wasn't meant for five, but I thought it, it was very indicative. It said, when this is all over, there's some of you, I still don't wanna see .

Linda Frazee (37:06):

So, but so the ultimate answer of what we're talking about with you, Bill would be that you would never work from seven to eight at night that you would say, look, this is from my balance. I can and do three or four of these or two in the morning and two in the afternoon or whatever, whatever that you really deem as your balance. So there's a rhythm about it. So, because if you lose three days for working for two in a row, you know, it doesn't make sense. I mean, you're better off just, you know, working right on on. And I know it's not easy. It's not easy for all of us, but there's, there's Bill's appetite. See appetite is part of what is going on for the seven, like more, more, more, more this a little bit's good. Okay, sure. I can put that in. Sure. I can do that, you know? Yeah. And so there's an appetite for information, for fun, for experience. And so the five is in the meantime, screaming, you know, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. So it's about actually letting both sides of you have a voice in your planning.

Bill Soroka (38:05):

Yeah. Yep. That's been a valuable lesson. I continue to learn every day. Yeah.

Linda Frazee (38:11):

So a couple of other things about the sticking point, which would be a challenge for a five and because it's called traditionally a risk, which is a desire to guard the things related to yourself, such as information, time, energy, and privacy that are deemed essential to survival. So you know, fives are good savers because they save lots of money because, you know, they, it feels like that's a, that's a resource, but what can get … energy in time? We've talked about that, but what can get blocked is the energy to stay engaged and connected the experience of life as abundant and free flowing. So that's really important. You know, now there's some other interesting things about fives, even though they they're a minimalist, as far as things go, they, they often have collections of special things. You know, my father was a five and he he used to have he, he had this, we lived in Colorado, small town in Colorado, and he was actually born and raised in a mining camp out of a, our little town in Salina.

Linda Frazee (39:22):

So he knew where a lot of these mine sites were. And he would go around and he would collect old bottles from the 1800's. And, and they'd be, had been outside for a long time. They turned purple and blue and green, and sometimes they're medicine bottles or whiskey bottles or whatever. They didn't have labels though. You wouldn't know. And so here is this man who was, you know, a minimalist in many ways. He wore, he wore the same clothes. If my mother let him, he'd wear the same clothes every day, they didn't match. He didn't care fives. Usually five men particularly you not care about clothes that match. Women fives are more attuned to it usually, but he had this wonderful, big bookcase in his garage with all these bottles in it. And, you know, people would just stand and look at them.

Linda Frazee (40:10):

And then in, in addition, he had stamps, he had, he was a stamp collector, had some very unusual things there. So if you are now, that doesn't mean that everybody who has a collection is a five, but that would be another clue to think about because it's, it's one of the things about the five it's about special things, just the special things. Now here's some interesting other things about them. There's a broad style of speaking, broad vocabulary, so unusual word choices, liberal use of the word think and interesting. They share their thoughts and observations more than their feelings. It's interesting. If you're trying to decide what center you're in this is sometimes hard to do for yourself, but you can ask somebody you live with to kind of watch, are you saying, I think, or I feel more, you know, like I feel that we ought to go here.

Linda Frazee (41:00):

I think we should go to the market. Well, I was feeling like we ought to go to the show. I mean, just notice, you know, because that will give you some clues. Their body language is self-contained controlled. Usually not very animated, although they can be, they, they wanna avoid strong feelings man's or self deeps, the self-disclosure and too muchness. One of the things that you would be a clue to a five is anytime you're leading a workshop and you say, now everybody find a partner and you're gonna, you know, fives are going out the back door. Oh my gosh. That's so relatable. Yeah. I've got another one here that I just loved about that. Let's see if I can find I had all these quotes. Oh, here five says this five says I don't like stupidity, emotional outbursts, illogical arguments, manipulation, or arrogance. Yeah.

Linda Frazee (41:53):

That pretty much thumbs it up. yeah. So those are the things they're gonna avoid at all costs. Now everybody has a blind spot on the Enneagram and this would be the fives. They may come across to others as cool, remote or insensitive, depending on how knowledgeable they are about a subject. They may say either too little or too much and lose their audience in their love of knowledge. They may come across as elitist or condescending. So those are some of the blind spots. Now the triggers, the triggers for them are demands. Boy, I need you to do this and I need to do it now right now. So that would be a good reason why a five wants to be an entrepreneur and their own boss, us other people's expectations and intrusions intrusions long ago, when I worked in Washington DC with a lot of government agencies, I worked so much with this with people about intrusions, because very often the people who were holding the pulse per purse, strings of the organization, the ones who would give out the money, if you were gonna travel or you needed extra money to the sales people would be a five in the accounting department.

Linda Frazee (43:01):

Well, these eights or other threes would rush in, not knock at the door, just open the door and go right in and say, okay, hi Harold. I'm here. I need, I need $5,000 before five o'clock. Can you have that check? Ready for me, Harold, to say, I'll take, I'll take a look at it. And guess what? Didn't get that $5,000 check by five o'clock and they never got a check out of there in a, in a timely fashion afterwards, because the fives don't forget. That is a Cardinal sin to have intrusions, not at the door before you come in, I spend a lot of time training. People send them an email. One would be a good time. I have something. When can I talk to you? It it's a lack of respect for them. That is just like, that is just too much breaking.

Linda Frazee (43:50):

Confidence is terrible. If you tell something to a five and you say, don't tell anybody, and you do you you're gonna have to really work to get that relationship back dis-honesty. Oh, dishonesty is another thing that is just like, not okay. We've already mentioned this, but too much emotion. If you're, you know, just really don't go to your five friend. If you're hysterical, it may try to, but, but it it's gonna wear them out. Being asked for a quick decision without time to think and gather information for a response because that's when they wanna gather their information and get it. So, okay. So I need you to know now, or do you wanna go or not? And so what I, what I help fives work is say, look, if you need that now the answer's no, because I have to research it. And then, and then say, I think I could tell you by Friday, but I can't give you that. Now, if they say, no, it's gotta be today. That's okay. Then, you know, I'm out of it.

Bill Soroka (44:49):

Yeah. That's something I've if that's that on the spot or a lot of times, certain personality types are just like, okay, tell me, tell me what you need to know. And sometimes you just gotta sit and either think it through, or you got some more research to do. So I love that approach though. Just saying, if you need the answer now's no. Yeah.

Linda Frazee (45:11):

You know, and, and that's just, and that's just, okay, because that's a way that you process everybody has a different way of processing and there's nothing wrong with the way the flag processes. It's what if people judge it another trigger is unexpected or unexplained change. That doesn't make sense. And this can be something so small or it can be huge. A typical one for the five with, let's say this couple is married and let's say, the guy is a five and he is driving the car and they say, and, and they're gonna go to the grocery store. And on the way she looks over and goes, oh, they're having a sale over there. Let's let's stop. He's going. No, we're she said not the plan stop there. No we to the grocery store. And that can be a big, big thing. I mean, even though this is, you know, now again, the way to handle that is before they go, I know we're gonna the grocery store, but I heard that. So, and so's having a sale or if I see a sale along the way, I'd really like to stop.

Bill Soroka (46:08):

At least the seed right. There might be some change coming, right?

Linda Frazee (46:12):

Yeah. So that's a small, but in a big thing, boy, in an organization or becoming an entrepreneur, let's say that a five has worked for an organization all their life. And now after 20 years, they're now gonna be an entrepreneur. You have to leave some space to gather that this is, this is a good change and really work with that because that could be paralyzing. Although it is not unexpected, not having enough time alone or physical space it's or, or social situational, small talk fives do not like cocktail parties or get to know me kind of things where everybody's supposed to walk around and talk to each other and find out little tidbits. That's just a really annoying. So

Bill Soroka (46:56):

Would we be talking about networking meetings there?

Linda Frazee (46:58):


Bill Soroka (47:02):

And I've struggled with this too. And I work with quite a few in that think very similarly to me with this the networking things. What suggestions do you have for fives who we relationships, we've gotta do some level of networking. Do you recommend the technology component or other, what other, what do your clients do?

Linda Frazee (47:25):

Well, there's a combination. Of course it depends somewhat on what the product is, but if it's you know, I'd say I'd lean heavily on technology because that allows there to be some space between you and the people specifically. And and do your research, spend your research. If you're gonna go to that networking meeting research, who's going to the best of your ability and make sure you connect with one or two of those people, instead of like the handshakes all around with everybody. If you're going to have to get up and give a little speech about your product or whatever it is you're doing, you know, gear it toward the kind of people that you really want as clients and, and be prepared and give it. And you might not be the first one there and you may leave early and all those are all okay. But you wanna connect with the people that you really feel are important to you.

Bill Soroka (48:14):

Yeah. That's such good advice. And it's literally exactly what I did on this business. And I know, you know, many of my businesses in the past, cuz you helped me work through some of those, but I tanked a very a business that had lots of, because it required such one on one cold calling all day. And I was just, it just did not fit my personality. I was terrified of it. I thought I was gonna die if I had to make a cold call . And then I didn't do that. When I got into the, my other business, my mobile notary business, I knew I had to make that work. I knew I had to a way to connect with people, but not cold calling. So doing exactly what you suggested researching people ahead of time. So they're no longer cold. They were warm. I knew something about them. I could relate to them in some way and then connect through email or text message or LinkedIn messenger, whatever it was that really changed everything. So I was able to network without networking.

Linda Frazee (49:14):

Right, right. And so, you know, there's a very small group of people overall who are wanna do cold calls and some of them are great at it. I mean the ones that are the ones that do well, I mean, they make a lot of money and they can do really well at it, but there are very few, I mean, most people are like, oh, please don't make me do that. You know, especially in this world now, you know, that is so much more technology, but that was very smart of you Bill to really understand what you needed to do and that you did it. So so here's what helps a five when they're stuck trusting that the world supports rather than bleach and there is no need to hoard or withhold, which is, non-attachment see, it's interesting because the virtue for the five is non-attachment.

Linda Frazee (50:03):

And they may say, well, I'm not attached to anything. I'm an, a minimalist, but it's non-attachment to the fact that they could go into a room full of people it's, non-attachment to the outcome of things. It's a non-attachment that yes, of course I will be successful no matter what I do. Mm. So that's a, non-attachment from the fear of it rather, and moving into action, engaging in life, in initiating activity and interaction giving of themselves and their energy. Exercise is extremely a strong component for fives because they tend to sit way too much and, you know, be on the phone or on their computer way too much, just naturally from the time their kids. And so movement, body movements good for everybody. I, every style will, will benefit from that. But for fives it's really even more important because the thing is about fives at the best they're trusting, they're engaged participants in life, they're reasonable and informed perceptive, objective, observant without detachment and in with, with, and with detachment, I'd say insightful and wise sensitive, playful and humor. And they're very innovative, very innovative. So, I mean, think of Einstein, I mean really innovative. So there's lots and lots of wonderful and, and they're great friends, as long as you understand that there are time they're going to need to withdraw. So I've got a couple of other quotes for them that I wanna give you or just no, cuz they're so interesting. Four or five, just because I don't react doesn't mean I didn't notice.

New Speaker (51:41):

They're very, very observant. And for, for some people, even just being love feels an overwhelming responsibility.

Bill Soroka (51:51):

Just being loved is overwhelming. Wow.

Linda Frazee (51:54):

That's powerful. And one of my, my five said I get high on intelligent conversations. The only thing worse that non-thinking is thinking like everybody else,

Bill Soroka (52:09):


Linda Frazee (52:11):

I closed my mouth and spoke to you in a hundred silent ways. Ooh,

Bill Soroka (52:17):

That was deep dude. Was that Confucius?

Linda Frazee (52:19):

I, no, this is just a list of quotes that I found. I thought this is a, I reveal myself in layers. If I deem you worthy, I peel slowly. I watch your reaction one small flinch and I seal wow. And the last one I'd like to say, he, who does not understand your silence will probably not understand your words.

Bill Soroka (52:41):

That is so deep. That is so deep. Yeah. I think it's time for a five panel. That'd be a fascinating conversation.

Linda Frazee (52:48):

yes. Oh yes. The fives are delightful, wonderful people. And and can, and they, as I said, they like to kind of pull back at times. They prefer to be so the wallpaper in a business meeting, if you're going to a business meeting and you have say a table with chairs all around it, if I would prefer to be on a chair with these back to the wall, it would prefer not to even sit at the table. Yeah. So zoom has been a good thing for them  

Bill Soroka (53:21):

Yeah. That all of that has got to be invented by, or definitely supported by fives right in way or the other. Yeah. This has been a fascinating conversation, Linda, on the fives and their pitfalls and of course their virtues that they bring to the table in this and business and in personal relationships, if you're listening and you're wondering where you might fall on the Enneagram, you can visit Linda for And you can take a look at her assessment paragraphs just to self-identify with what might lead for you as well. You can visit the V I P room of the side hustle lounge at side hustle,, and we'll have additional resources and links inside there. So you can connect with Linda in multiple ways as well. Linda, any closing comments or remarks on the five?

Linda Frazee (54:23):

I would say don't under estimate anybody. That's an introvert, even though you may not know that they're a five and, and also don't try to type them. If you see an introvert, oh, well they must be a five. They're an introvert, cuz not all introverts a five, all types can be any type can be an introvert, but so don't underestimate them. Don't understand. Don't think that they're not listening, that they don't know what's going on that they may be disconnected from the conversation because they probably picked up more than you can ever know and, and appreciate them, appreciate them for all that. They are holding within them because they carry a lot of wonderful knowledge.

Bill Soroka (55:03):

Excellent advice, Linda, thank you so much for joining us again for this insightful conversation on the Enneagram.

Linda Frazee (55:10):

Thank you Bill.

Bill Soroka (55:11):

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