Bonus Episode: Pitfalls in Business by the Enneagram Numbers - THE FOUR


Type Four on the Enneagram can often be pining for the greener grass on the other side. If they're not careful, they can slip into melancholy and drama. When they're strong and healthy, fours can be creative, thoughtful, and deeply in touch with emotions they can be a strong support system for their network.

Guest Information:

Linda Frazee has over 40 years of experience as a professional speaker, business consultant and executive coach. She is the author, "Full Heart Satisfied Belly," and is founder of Positive Imagery, Inc., a personal and professional development company located in Scottsdale, AZ. Her professional training is in Transpersonal Psychology and Imagery.

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Episode Highlights:

22:58 Fours: They always float up to the top. But they have to kind of ruminate down there - but they're okay.

34:21 If you think of some of the famous singers through the years who told their stories authentically, that was probably brought there by fours.

41:57 So the speaking style for the four can be dramatic, either a quiet, well modulated voice, or an intense often urgent cadence. That's part of marching to the tune of a different drummer.

--- Full Raw Transcription Below ---

Linda Frazee (00:00):

You know, you think, well, I don't have purple hair and I don't have spiked, I don't have tattoos over my body, so I can't be a four. It's much broader than that. It's about how inside yourself, you hold yourself as unique and we all do to some degree, but the four. Does it all the time versus just sometimes.

Introduction (00:19):

Welcome to the SideHustle Lounge. If you're looking for flexible ways to earn income, grow your mindset, and live the lifestyle you've always dreamed of, you are in the right place. So lower the lights. Grab your favorite beverage, and join your host, founder of and Amazon bestselling author of “Sign and Thrive: How To Make Six Figures As A Mobile Notary And Loan Signing Agent,” Bill Soroka.

Bill Soroka (00:53):

Cheers and welcome back to my guest, Linda Frazee. Linda is a life and business coach that has been utilizing the Enneagram and over, for over 40 years in her practice. She's also the founder of the [email protected]. Linda, welcome back. I'm so excited to dive into our conversation today.

Linda Frazee (01:18):

Well, it's always good to be here, Bill, and the Enneagram just unfolds and unfolds. So those who've been listening regularly, I'm excited to tell them all about the four on the Enneagram.

Bill Soroka (01:30):

Yeah, that's what we're talking to be, talking about today. What does it mean to be number four on the Enneagram or to lead with the four on the Enneagram. Before we dive into number four, though, Linda, tell us an interesting tip that maybe most people don't know about the Enneagram.

Linda Frazee (01:46):

Well, the Enneagram may seem on the surface very superficial, but it's not at all. It's quite deep. And I say it's for serious seekers. So here is a serious seeker tidbit. Each one of these types is in a center called a center of intelligence, three different centers of intelligence that we all have, we just have a preference for. And, and the center type of each center. So this is like there's three types in there. And that one right in the middle today, we're gonna be talking more about the last type in the feeling center, which is the four. So if you think of a two, and then next two is three and the next is a four that center type. In this case, the three is always the most affected by the sticking point, which is what I call it or the traditionally called the vice.

Linda Frazee (02:35):

Now just as an illustration in this feeling type group of the three and that, in this feeling center, this, the three is right in the, the middle between those two numbers and they are the most out of touch with their feelings. So it's kind of a conundrum in the idea that, you know, here they are right in the middle of the feeling type. And that's because as we may remember from your, if you listen to the threes before, it's all about production. So they're sort of up and out of their awareness with their eyes, with their body, looking for the next thing to do the next you know, kind of like the sevens looking for the next shiny object, Bill, you can, you can relate to that. But the three is looking for, what can I do next? What can I do next?

Linda Frazee (03:18):

You know, what can I, where can I get some approval? So, so they, they are actually out of touch with their feelings. Now I bring that up for today for the interesting fact, because their next door neighbor where we're gonna spend our time talking about today, the four is the most in touch with their feelings. And it's it's, as a, as I've said before, any strength over you use becomes a weakness. So the four is the one who is really in touch with their feelings, but if they're overly in touch with their feelings, then that becomes a weakness.

Bill Soroka (03:49):

Hmm. Yeah. And I think we've all met people just like that.

Linda Frazee (03:52):

Right, right. That they don't seem to be able to get out of their four, out of their feelings. And, and particularly people who are not in touch with their feelings like threes or even sevens or other types or even types that just didn't have a very, you know, family of origin that was into feelings much, which is the majority of people, you know, are uncomfortable around fours, can be uncomfortable around fours who want to talk about those deep feelings. Because, you know, they're not accustomed to going there and that's not fun.

Linda Frazee (04:24):

And so I would say that of all the types of the Enneagram, I should save this for another interesting fact, but I'm gonna put it out today anyway. The fours and the eights from old language, get a bad rap. The fours, because there's so much into their feelings and the eights, because they're so much into their feeling of anger. And so on both occasions, sometimes people will back away for them. But before we get into all of that, let's, let's start with, you know, what is a four on the Enneagram, somebody who leads with their four. Remember you are not a, you're not your number, you lead with that number. And so let's just talk out what is a four, like, you know, here they are, they're in the feeling based center. So they, as I mentioned, the three ignores their feelings, even though they're at the center of that, the four feels everything highly sensitive.

Linda Frazee (05:15):

Usually a four child has heard from the time they could re, even remember, you're too sensitive. You, you worry too much, you're crying too much. There's something wrong with you. And the reason for that is that in the family of origin, the, the suggestion is that the child has felt abandoned in some way. Now it doesn't mean that they've been left on the church steps in a basket. And that kind of drastic abandonment, what it means is that in some way they felt like they weren't heard and seen by one of their parents and it could be, or maybe both of them or the people who are raising them. And it could also be that because of the intensity of fours very often they're quite intense people, intense about their feelings, that the parents kind of backed up and started not feeling as willing to listen to the four's feelings.

Linda Frazee (06:05):

And so that, who knows what came first, the chicken or the egg? But in any case, abandonment runs this, this four's life always feeling like they're going to be abandoned. And so with a, a they're, they're called by the way the, the person who is wanting to, they're called a romantic. Years ago, they were called a tragic romantic. And then we began to change that because that was kind of a negative connotation much more so than any of the others. They're also called the, the romantic, as I said, that it could be just the romantic. They're often called the individualist too, because they can look a little bit like the six, which we'll talk about in the future podcast. But the, the similarity there is they kind of March to the tune of their own drummer fours.

Linda Frazee (06:58):

Don't just pony up naturally to everybody else's idea because they're trying to be unique and special. And they're sometimes called the artist because they are usually very creative. Although I don't like using the word artist because that makes us all think of somebody painting or drawing or, you know, writing a book or some clever thing like that. And it might show up like that. But there's a lot of ways to be creative that, that aren't the artist kind of connotation. So this group of fours are very diverse. And there's the subtypes make a big difference, which we may do another series on subtypes be because actually for each one of these types, there's three different kinds of fours looks like there's three different kinds of threes and so forth. But that's a little complicated to start on the, the, the to start with the basic program.

Bill Soroka (07:50):


Linda Frazee (07:51):

So getting back to what does a four look like? Well they are someone who really have decided because they, never felt like they got the love that they really wanted, the attention that, that what they have to be in order to get that approval, that all types in the feeling center are wanting and craving. They have to be unique and special. So they take that on, in a big way unconsciously. This is an unconscious kind of belief. This isn't like something like the, the child sits there and says, hmm, I know I've got to be unique. It just is an automatic unconscious belief. And it's, because they're trying to be essential, they believe, to be deeply connected to others. And the fear is of being, losing connection and being abandoned because that's kind of the under lying feeling of falling into that pit of abandonment and never being loved.

Linda Frazee (08:45):

So they attempt to get, to be special and unique to avoid being abandoned or rejected. And in order to do that, sometimes they create drama and intensity. If you ever see, if you go to a Starbucks and you see the barista is serving you your coffee, and they've got spike hair and tattoos all over and, and long earrings, and maybe some wild, wild, crazy clothes might be a four. That wouldn't be enough, of, of a typing to say they are, but that's an illustration of willing to be unique. And in their circle of friends, they wouldn't be unique at all because they'd be with a group of people who dress like that and they'd feel quite at home. But they're willing to go out into the world and, and be different. And, and there's some intensity about that. So, and it may not be that, that the way I'm describing it is as intense there for you, because maybe you like to dress like that. And so you'd feel like you were home because I'm a, four myself. I always compliment those people. I always say, I love your purple hair, you know, and, you know, or whatever, because I really want them to know that I, I understand that they are stepping out and being different and that that's OK. You know? So, you know, and I, I don't tell people things that I don't believe I, I really do like, but you know, there is a lot of beautiful purple hair.

Bill Soroka (10:08):

There really is. I, I love it too. I'm curious though, since you're a four yourself, how did this show up for you? Did you ever do anything like this?

Linda Frazee (10:17):

Well, I don't have purple hair, so , although some of my friends are as old as I am, do have purple hair. So it's, it's never too Late.

Bill Soroka (10:25):

It's never late. Exactly, exactly.

Linda Frazee (10:28):

Well, it's interesting. I was quite introverted as a child, so I didn't show up as intensely. I had intense books about intense things, and I started speaking, studying Shakespeare probably about 10 or 12 and thinking in Shakespearean words inside my mind not knowing that, of course, that this was, a not knowing the Enneagram at all as a child, of course, and, and not being aware that this was any different than anybody else, but secretly knowing that I was different. So that was part of it. And I definitely did march to the tune of a different drummer. If everybody was gonna go one way, I would go another not even consciously knowing that like, well, I, I mean, it just wasn't like, oh yeah, I'll follow that group. It was like, no, I don't think so. I didn't do much of the the dressing differently that wasn't really part of it. But this is a big one because I was a very early adapter to the Enneagram.

Linda Frazee (11:27):

I started teaching the Enneagram when people were going the whatigram? What is that? And why would you wanna do that? And and you know, nobody heard of it. And some people, it lightly interesting, but it certainly didn't have the legs that it has in our world today, so many years later. And so when it began to be really popular, and now the Enneagram is everywhere, I actually considered, well, maybe I don't want to do this anymore. And I found myself, okay, now why ask, I questioned myself, why wouldn't you wanna do this anymore? Well, because now everybody's doing it. It's no longer unique, you know, so I've had to talk to myself and say, okay, so that is my, my vice coming up, that's into envy and I have to balance it out by being unique and special. So that's kind of how it showed up in my life. Interesting. Now, Bill, you sent, you have worked with me and see me. How do you see it in my life?

Bill Soroka (12:24):

Interesting, good question. I have not seen you with the purple hair either, although I would love to see that. But , I think I, I don't know that I would, I could even nail down a specific character trait. There is, there is a very uniqueness to you that I think I can really relate to on so many levels too. And that is going a different direction and standing in your own knowledge that you are doing things different and you're okay with that. That's what really stands out. Definitely not going mainstream. And I, I love that. And I think I can really too, because I'm attracted to people who do things differently, that don't, that aren't following the herd. So that's what it stands out for me.

Linda Frazee (13:16):

Well, thank you. And there's another one I thought of. When I was on the speaking circuit, which I was for many years across the country for probably 10 years, even though I was credentialed as a psychotherapist, I never put that on anything. And people would come up to me and say, I get this sense that you've, you're a psychologist or a psychiatrist or something. I, I would say, well, yeah, my background is in that. And people would say to me, why don't you put that on there? Well, because in those days, because I was speaking largely to men, if I was a psychic, anything, psychologist, psych psychotherapist, anything, their arms were crossed in the audience. So I was just, I was just a speaker. I was a professional speaker. I never put micro on that at all. And and that served me.

Linda Frazee (13:58):

And to this day, I don't have any, if you saw my office, I don't have any degrees up. I don't have all that stuff up. Because I don't feel like I need it. I don't have to prove myself. You know, I know who I am. I know what I've done. And so you can probably even hear a little bit of defensiveness when I say that, you know. So I go in these offices and people have walls of, you know, of every class they've ever taken. And you know, because they give you these kind of diplomas for everything you do. and I just don't feel the need.

Bill Soroka (14:29):

Right. That's prob, leave that for the threes and the ones, right?

Linda Frazee (14:32):

Yeah. Right. Definitely. Yeah. So that's how I knew. I, I, wasn't a three for sure.

Bill Soroka (14:37):


Linda Frazee (14:38):

So enough about me, but that's, I hopefully that's, that's you know, valuable to people to kind of hear that. So, because I don't want you to think that to, if you're considering who you might be, if you're listening to this podcast and you're saying, well, gee, am I a four? You know, you think, well, I don't have purple hair and I don't have spiked, I don't have tattoos over my body, so I can't be a four. So it's much broader than that. It's about how inside yourself, you hold yourself as unique. And we all do to some degree, but the four does it all the time versus just sometimes. So their attention goes, though, to how deep are connections, more beauty and intensity can be attained, what would make things better in an aesthetic sense?

Linda Frazee (15:20):

So a four has to have beauty, and of course, beauty is a individual concept. So what might be beautiful to me may not be at all to you or to someone else, but it's got to be beautiful to my eye, to my setting, or it doesn't feel right. In the same way that a one who's a perfectionist can't stand, stand art in a hotel. If it's ugly, they'll try to take it down because it can't stand it. The four would just maybe deal with it, but just be, say, it's not beautiful. It's just not beautiful. Don't they even know how to make things beautiful, you know? And so that need for beauty around them, beauty to their own eye is what feeds their core value of authenticity, originality, individuality, and beauty. And so the combination of all that, there's a lot of strengths for four.

Linda Frazee (16:12):

The first thing I wanna say, if you're down and out, or you're having a bad day, you want to call your four friend because they will sit with you. They're not afraid to, of feeling so, you know, you could just be going on and on and saying, sometimes I don't even think I want to live. And they'd say, okay, tell me more about that. That isn't like, oh my gosh, that's terrible. They go, of course, I think of that all the time. Tell me more. Cause they're, they're just willing to, to look at the deeper aspects of life and they will be there for you. In fact, sometimes that's when your, four friend will be the best friend to you is when you're down and out. So they're sensitive, they're original, they're intense. They're expressive and you know, and here's another example of a four, let's say you're in a friend group and somebody is really quite upset and everybody's ignoring them and everybody's having this light conversation.

Linda Frazee (17:04):

It's the four who might say, okay, okay, Jenny, what, what is your issue? I can see something's going on. Tell us what's going on, where everybody else would be like, if we just ignore her, maybe maybe's, she will just won't express it. And we, and we can just forget it. So the four will bring it out. They're carrying, they're highly intuitive. They value authenticity. And so if they get that somebody is really kind of, oh, just covering up what's really going on. They will either, if they value you that friendship, they'll dig to find out how the person really is and what's really going on, or they will just ignore them. And they don't even want them in their circle. They're, they can be very creative, perceptive, as I mentioned, unique and, and questing. They're always looking for what's going on. Because they always feel like the grass is greener on the other side, which is part of their sticking point. In fact I've got some quotes today from some famous fours. And let me see if I can find that one. I have an insane calling to be where I am not. Was sent by Billie Holiday.

Bill Soroka (18:13):


Linda Frazee (18:15):

So it's like, and I had a client once, a young man about in his early twenties and he said, you know, I'm envious of, of things, other people's things, even, even though I don't want them. . So, so you know, envy is the vice or the sticking point for the four. And again, once again, don't, we all sometimes have envy. Of course, but it's how often that has been a characteristic and, and something that you have been in all of your life. That's why we say you lead with a certain number. If you lead with a four envy has been around in your life, always. And for, for me, one of the earliest things that I remember about envying was a little boy moved in next door to me. And he was adopted and his parents were very wealthy. And so they gave him all these wonderful toys and he had like three or four little pedal cars, you know. And now, now they would be electric, but in those days they didn't have electric little cars for kids that I know of.

Linda Frazee (19:11):

And I envied those things and the good news was I got to play with him. He was very generous. And let me play with his, with his little cars that we could get in and right around, up and down the sidewalk. But I was, I dreamed of nights of just having my home. I was was very envious of his little, little cars. Well, once again, you'd say, well, wouldn't everybody. Yeah to some degree, but I mean, it, it was a dominating fact, factor in my life.

Bill Soroka (19:35):


Linda Frazee (19:36):

And so that was an early beginning of that envy. And envy is not jealousy. It's not like I want to go and take theirs. And that's interesting distinctive. It's not like I want, I'm gonna take theirs away so they won't have it. It's just like, I, the thought I was happy with my toys until I saw what he had. And then, oh gosh, I want, I want to have some things like that too. And so suddenly my toys are not as bright and shiny or as much fun. So what comes up for you Bill, when you hear this?

Bill Soroka (20:04):

Well, having dated a couple of fours in my time, I can, I can relate to this because there's, I remember dating one and be particular where we would go on vacation and they would start dreading leaving vacation like four or five days before we were leaving. So it would suck the joy out of the remaining part of the trip cause they knew the, the end was coming. So they would just start, oh, I can't believe we have to leave. I can't believe we have to and, and worrying about having to come home in the middle of the vacation. So.

Linda Frazee (20:37):


Bill Soroka (20:38):

Is that a good example of what you're looking for?

Linda Frazee (20:43):

Well, it is. It's, it's probably more about the longing there than the envy, but that is, that brings up the longing because that's what that quote about, I always want to be someplace else. It's like, well then when I land and I'm there, oh wow how wonderful this is with all this intensity I'm enjoying, this is tremendous and I'm free and I don't have to work and, and on and on and on. And wow. I found my Nirvana. Oh, no. Now I've got to leave. And then I have to go back into this other place where the grass is always greener on the the other side. And you know, I'm thinking, oh no, when can I come back, please let me go, let me stay longer. And so it's the longing. When you're not satisfied with where you are, longing becomes a natural part of your life. And so that's some sort of the sadness that you can feel and sometimes the irritation you can around a four who doesn't ever seem to be satisfied with what they have.

Linda Frazee (21:35):

And the difference between that and a three, well, they'll just work harder to get what they want. If they, if they want a new car they'll they'll have it. No problem. They're just going to work a few more hours, make some more money and go get that new car. But the four can get so lost and like, I wish I could have a new car too. And then they get the, the longing and the longing can be immobilizing. So now they can't even get up to do the work that they need to do to get the car. So….

Bill Soroka (22:02):

And there's some power in the, some of the sadness and the feelings that they drum up too. And I think you kind of spoke to this, I hear from a lot of artists, they do their best work in their sadness or in their group.

New Speaker (22:13):

Yes. I would say that yes, that's and, and, you know, Van Gogh was probably a four. Now that's an extreme example, , you know, because he also had a mental illness as well, and all fours do not have mental illness. But there is that longing and that depth, see, there's not a fear of going into the depth. So in that depth, I would say, I wrote my best poetry ever when I was in that depth. People write wonderful novels. They can really get into the inner workings of what's going on and, or painting or doing whatever, you know, it can really show up in that. So it isn't someplace that, most fours are going, oh no, no, I don't want to go there. You know, almost all fours have some kind of history with depression. It doesn't have to mean clinical depression.

Linda Frazee (22:58):

It doesn't mean that they were institutionalized because they couldn't cope with life, but it does mean that they have spent some time just feeling, just depressed. And and it's interesting because often people will say, well, you know, I'm in this relationship with this four and they're depressed and boy it's, so drags me down and what should I do? And two pieces of advice about that; if you think that you're a partner or the person you're dating is a four, first of all, don't try to cheer them up. It is the worst thing you can do because while they're in there, they need to be there. And if it bothers you too much, you need to get distance. Or just remember, the second thing is they always come back up on their own, 95% of the time. And you know, it's like a cork in a bottle. They always float up to the top. But they have to kind of ruminate down there with this and they're okay. It's usually the people around them that aren't okay.

Bill Soroka (23:58):

I just don't wanna deal with those kinds of emotions that I can totally relate to. Now, I, there was a quote that jumped out about this very topic and it was from Franz Kafka and he said, I have the true feeling of myself only when I am unbearably unhappy. And I think this relates to what you're talking about here. Do you think then as part of a sticking point for fours, that they might self sabotage when things are going good, so they can get into those feelings again and create good work or what they think is their best work?

Linda Frazee (24:37):

Yes. I think that can be the case. Now. I wouldn't say that every four does that. Exactly. But I think I have known many people who do. And it's also something about the intensity as far as like, and this is again a similarity between a six actually and a four, about if I really succeed here, let's say I'm doing really well and I succeed, then I'm gonna have to keep it up. Now that's a fear for the six which we haven't gone to yet. That'll be in a couple of weeks. But for the four, it's like, I'm not gonna have time to be in this deep place of dissatisfaction and depression. And this is a, this is like a resting place. It's like a place I curl up and I feel comfortable in. However, I would also say that a healthy four does that less. Now, remember that in all these types, every type on the Enneagram, you can have healthy, unhealthy, or in between.

Linda Frazee (25:34):

Most people are more in between. And they dip sometimes into the unhealthy portion and then they dip into the, to the healthy portion. And they're more moderate should we say with all their responses. But if a if a four is unhealthy, they may really latch onto the unhealthy place in order to do their work and then that's the only thing they know. So when I work with someone like that, what I help them do is have a, to, to live more in the moderate place and visit this and to know when they're visiting and, and not make it wrong or say, you can't go there, but have them visit that, that deeper place on occasion. But make sure they know how to get back. And when it works for them. And when it doesn't.

Bill Soroka (26:17):

Doesn't, what's a tool for ma making that transition, how do you pop in and out like that?

Linda Frazee (26:23):

Well, the very first thing is that whatever center you're in and this feeling center, you, you can't always trust your feelings. See the four is going to, overtrust their feelings. They're gonna say, well, my feelings are that I'm too tired today. So I've just lost the whole day. Well, that may not be true. I mean, they may feel tired, but they could meditate. They could go out and take a walk. They could you know, watch TV or watch a movie and they might feel fine. But they may give so much credit to their feelings like, well, then the whole day is ruined. So, you know, there's just no sense. I just might as well go back to bed. And which makes their feelings worse because then they feel shame because in this center, this feeling center shame is the underlying feeling, shame and anxiety.

Linda Frazee (27:07):

So you don't want to feed the shame and anxiety. You want to, you know, be gentle and treat yourself well. So one, one of those things is really beginning to get to know, when are my feelings really taking me down a garden path that does not have my highest and best good in mind? How do I, I allow myself to have my feelings for a certain amount of time, and then I come back up. So rather than losing the whole day, another technique would be for a four to, depending on how much time they had allocated for this say, okay, for, for two hours, I'm gonna be bummed out. I'm just gonna go into this. Okay. So this is how I'm feeling right now. Okay. I'll give myself permission. And then I'm gonna set my alarm in two hours when it rings up, I'm gonna get up and I'm gonna do something, usually take a walk or some form of exercise will break some of that syndrome.

New Speaker (27:53):

Shift the energy a little bit.

Linda Frazee (27:55):

Yeah, no, I do not recommend drinking or drugging of any kind, you know, to, to shift it. And that's why you will, find that there are a fair amount of attacks who have become fours because of the pain, of the emotional pain. So, so certainly those would be some techniques to say, okay, I don't want to go down that, that garden path. You know, I have a saying that beware of any four, who's not exercising because, and I worked with a colleague who, who often said, oh, that's true of everybody. And to some degree it is, but it's really true for fours because there's so much emotional energy that it has to be dissipated. It has to be, you know, gotten out of your body on a regular basis depending on how intense the four is, that could be simply a mile walk. If they are really an intense, tense type of four, they may have to run or jog or go to the gym and work out heavily on a regular basis, makes a big difference to a four.

Bill Soroka (28:53):

I loved what you said about allocating some time to feel what you need to feel. This is something that I have adopted too. And I think you said that fours and sevens can oftentimes be similar or very connected. But when I have these feelings, I do this too. I call it my pity party. So when something doesn't go according to plan, like as a seven, I'm just like, I'm sideswiped when things don't go my way. Right? So sometimes it takes me by surprise, but I'll just say, all right, I'm gonna give myself a half a day. I'm gonna feel what I need to feel. And then I'm going to get up. And it's, mine is usually create something or take a walk or take a drive, just something to shift the energy there so I can see how that would definitely help.

Linda Frazee (29:36):

Right. And so you're, you're doing a good, you know, you have a good habit there going and, but see the difference is the recognition, the recognition that I have some power that I can do something. So that's why I was saying that if you're in the feeling type of, of either two or three or four and, or you're feeling strongly, you're landing in the four, what you don't want to do is buy the truth of your feelings. Like, because after a while, if you watch the news and you read the paper and you talk to a depressed friend, you can just go, well, the world is such a mess you know. It's just awful, you know? And, and you can just project that out into everything and just think no matter what happens. And you know, when you're doing that, I want to take a side step because this is good for fours.

Linda Frazee (30:17):

If you have one of those days where nothing goes right, you know, you get in your car and it won't start, you call the people to fix it. It takes 'em long time to get there. They don't have what they need. You finally get it fixed and you go to have coffee and they're out of your type of coffee, you know? And then when you do get your coffee, you spill it. I mean, you, I'm sure you've all had days like that, but you know, then that you're projecting out this victimhood and things that, that won't go, right. So rather than do that, whatever type you are, you need to stop, take a couple deep breaths, get reconnected to yourself and, and, you know, either journal or talk out loud or do something to let go of this sense of victimhood, which fours can be big on victimhood. And that's probably the, one of the most annoying qualities that, that other types will say they feel about fours until you can release that. And so you can at least get to a moderate place. And then you can go on with your day.

Bill Soroka (31:13):

I love that.

Linda Frazee (31:14):

Yeah. Or if you're finding a lot of these negative things happening, just go home. But don't go home like, well, the world is really screwed up. So that's, that's clear, you know, the, and I can't even be out there, take it back and say, wow, I'm, I'm really putting off some, some negative energy here. I need to go get myself balanced.

Bill Soroka (31:30):

And one of my favorite ways to do this, Linda now, is just a mantra that when, when I get either stopped by a cop or stopped by the stop sign, cause I'm in my car all the time. So it's usually related to driving, but It could be anything I just trust and I remind myself that everything is unfolding in my favor. This is, this is the way it's supposed to be. And that has helped change and shift my energy around these days like that immensely.

Linda Frazee (31:58):

That's an excellent, excellent affirmation because you go to have something like that just to remind yourself that, you know, so if you got stopped by a policeman, cause your taillight was out that had you not, you might have been an accident down the road, you might have, you know, had something else. Or how many times have you been late? I don't know about you Bill, but I've been late many times in my life and you're thinking, oh no. And you can go through this whole projection of, oh no, this is gonna happen. And that's gonna be a problem and you get there and they go, oh, I'm so glad you're late. Because we're so behind today.

Bill Soroka (32:25):

Yes. All the time.

Linda Frazee (32:26):

You know? So it's, it's like, you know an energetic match. And so if you can relax into it, not that this gives us all permission to be constantly late.

Bill Soroka (32:35):

Right, definitely not.

Linda Frazee (32:36):

If, if we're so anxious about it, we only make it worse. And so trusting is the big issue. So, going back to the fours, that's the kind of that trust is important because what gets blocked with this sticking point of envy and longing is a and, and this desire to be what, where you're not and a focus on what's missing instead of what you have is the ability to be in the moment, just in the moment and being, regardless of the deficiencies and of your own deficiencies or whatever conditions you see around you, and be in the moment with gratitude and equanimity for what is present. I want to, I wanna focus just a minute on the equanimity because that's the virtue or the high side for the four. Cause if you imagine the Libra scales and you know, it's like they used to measure you know, gems and minerals on, you know back and forth.

Linda Frazee (33:38):

And this is the, the role that envy plays in a four's life and an internal working without even knowing it without even visualizing it. This is what's going on. In any situation, am I better? Am I worse? You know, and most of the time for an unhealthy four, I'm always worse. So now I'm trying to be better. So I'm trying to be more unique, more unique, more unique, doing whatever you imagine or I'm depressed. And, and the scale goes down on your side because I'm not everybody else has more than I do. Even if I don't want it, they have more. And so I'm depressed. And so or on occasion, oh look, I'm doing really well. I'm much better than everybody here because look what they they have this, but I have that either case it's, it's all imagined it's not real.

Linda Frazee (34:21):

Equanimity is a balance. So if you look, if you imagine that Libra scales and on both sides, it's balanced, that's what equanimity is. We're all in this together. You know, everybody deserves the same kind of thing. Everybody has the same opportunities. I'm not better. I'm not worse than anybody else. And so that's a big life lesson that a, that a four who has, has worked with their own equanimity and has achieved to some degree. And most of the time is able to be there. That brings a lot of gifts to the world. You know, a lot of artists singers, songwriters, painters, people who work with others who can inspire others people who are authentic. If you think of some of the famous singers through the years who told their stories authentically a lot about that is authenticity. That was probably brought there by fours. And another quote I have from another singer, I mentioned, one of Billie Holiday's is I'm going to sing like someone else then I don't need to sing at all. You know, because, you know, I just, I have to be me. I have to be authentic. And I have to tell my own story.

Bill Soroka (35:31):

If I'm understanding you correctly, what I'm hearing is there's so much value that fours bring to the world, authenticity, originality, their uniqueness, connection to others. They're creative, they're constantly questing and seek seeking. And then this in order to bring that out in the best way possible, there's this equanimity, that kind from, from what, working with gratitude, working on themselves, getting to that balanced place?

Linda Frazee (36:03):

Right? Yes. I think it's an inner journey that's for sure. And the four is the most willing of all the types on the Enneagram to do that inner journey. And I would say young fours often, as I said, might get into addiction and then they get sober. And when they get sober, wow. Now, even while they're, while they're in their addiction, they may write some of the most powerful songs. We have no idea how many of these famous songs that we walk around singing and listening to were written, you know, when somebody was high or, or drunk, you know, but they were really down into their deep feelings as the four, but when they get sober, wow, what do they bring to the world? I mean, so there's, there's this bright eyes that come out of this. That's like, wow, look at the rest of the world.

Linda Frazee (36:46):

There's so much joy. And, and, and there's a power. And that intensity then can be shared in words and songs and in art, all of that, that are just beautiful. Now there's a lot, there's actual books of the Enneagram about that suggest who famous people who were, you know, were certain types. However, you have to take all of that with a grain of salt, because it would seem so on the surface. But remember, we don't, unless somebody's done a typing interview and found this for yourself, , you know, we're, we're just guessing. But there's a lot of intense people who have been, like I said, Van Gogh. Van Gogh did not do the Enneagram to my knowledge. So, but, but you're right, Bill. They bring a lot of, of joy and things to the world. But finding that equanimity is important because otherwise it's a tenuous balance for fours, because there they are, they're, they're seeking to be balanced and suddenly they dip.

Linda Frazee (37:42):

And they can dip, well, let me give you this illustration; a three might dip because they're speaking to a group of people and somebody in the back row, isn't paying attention. That's a dip for three. For somebody else that might, they might not even notice so they might ignore that person. But for the three it's like, oh no, they're not getting it. I, I'm not getting across for the four. It could be walking down the hall and somebody doesn't say hi. And so they immediately think, what did I do? They go into shame. They think, well, they get mad at that person. They're they're thinking, oh no, maybe they didn't like the last report I did. And you know, and there they are down in longing, longing to be, maybe I need another job. I haven't liked it here anyway.

Linda Frazee (38:22):

So, so a four in another strategic moment for a four is recognizing when they do that, when they start going down, what I call the rabbit hole of their own negativity and catch themselves just like you mentioned it with your affirmation. So they don't go all the way down there because that, and then when they're down there, let's talk a little bit about how do you, how do you work with somebody or live with somebody who's a four who tends to go down there more frequently than you would like? Well, the first thing is, listen to them. And you may have to protect yourself with that. I had someone ask me in a business situation, well, how do you do that? Because I really want to be there for them. But you know, I don't have much time.

Linda Frazee (39:05):

So say look, hi, John. Yeah. Yeah, I hear you got a problem. Okay. Yeah. I'll be glad to listen to you. I've only got five minutes before this meeting, if you're, if you're on the phone or in a zoom situation, so I'll be glad to listen to you and then really listen to him. Because something that people do who have, who live or around the four often is it's like, they're, they're kind of humming to themselves. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. They're not really listening. They're you know, they may give eye contact and all, but they're, they've really gone away. The four will know that and they get more intense. So really listen for five or 10 minutes, if you are a manager and you have a four that you're trying to manage and they come into your office, say, okay, I've got 10 minutes here and I'm all yours for 10 minutes, but then set your clock.

Linda Frazee (39:51):

And when the 10 minutes goes off, say, you know, okay, John, that's all the time I've got. And they say, well, there's more, I say, we'll, we'll look for another spot. But many times, if you really listen to a four, and you're really present to them and they're angst, they'll finish by saying that was the best conversation I've ever had with you. And you may have not said anything, but mm-hmm, yeah.

Bill Soroka (40:11):

They just feel heard.

Linda Frazee (40:11):

And then what happens? They feel heard because they are so coming from a place of feeling abandoned and then because they're so intense, they try to talk to people about it and people are going, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah I know you feel like that a lot. And so it just, it just makes it worse. So if you really want to help a four you know, but do have your own boundaries. Because what wont help if you say, okay, I'm gonna listen. And then, you know, 45 minutes later, they're still going on and you finally say, I can't take anymore. That's not gonna work. So make it a win-win situation. So…

Bill Soroka (40:46):

Yeah, I love that. I love that. And I love that some of the potential fours or the fours that are relating to this now can realize too that how much, how power there is, especially right now. I think there's this big movement in vulnerability and authenticity. So I think we're coming into a time of the fours in some ways. Would you agree with that?

Linda Frazee (41:08):

I would. I, I think that things we've been backed up, we've been at home. We haven't been able to connect in a, in a really general sort of way, or even a specific think ways. And I think that there's a lot of stuff in the media right now about mental health and being vulnerable and the value of it from a lot of the big named celebrities and stars, even prince William, you know, or, or yeah, prince William. Is that the one that's married to Kate? Oh, prince Harry. Remember Harry Harry. Yes, that's right. [Edit Note - not Kate, but Megan indicated in her Oprah interview that she suffered from depression] So, you know, just speaking out so that it's like getting that everybody needs mental health and needs to, you know, be able to draw good boundaries. So I do think we are coming more into it. And I want to, I want to talk a little bit more about the four and if you're listening and you're still wondering if you might be one.

Linda Frazee (41:57):

So the speaking style for the four can be dramatic, either a quiet, well modulated voice, or an intense often urgent cadence. They easily share personal stories. They use I and me often in speaking, and will frequently pull the conversation back to their own experience, they share difficult and painful feelings without thinking about the impact on others. You know, they just get into, well, and then this happened and it's just really this drastic thing. And, and they, they sometimes they're so caught up in their story they don't notice that people are taking deep breath just to manage, to stay there. They can appear intense, I've mentioned that to others with focused eyes and their very, very direct eye contact. They're they avoid ordinariness of any kind. And that's part of walking to the tune of a different, marching to the tune of a different drummer.

Linda Frazee (42:47):

They don't like mundane surroundings or repetitive, boring jobs, you know, unless a four is just having to work to feed their family in a famine. They're not gonna be on an assembly line, not because they think they're better than that, just because it would be totally boring. They avoid situations and opportunities that they don't do well in and feel deficient. That's a little bit like the three. The four's blind spot is that they miss the balance and perfection the present moment while they're wishing they were on the other side of the fence which looks greener. They're unaware of how dramatic and intense they appear to others. Because after all, they're just living there where they've always been. They tend to pull the conversation toward themselves and don't even realize it until they begin to become more aware. And they create drama to dispel feelings of boredom and being ordinary.

Linda Frazee (43:39):

So, whereas Bill, as a seven might be feeling bored, might go find some fun thing to do, you know, or another shiny object. A four would create drama and and others can see them as self-absorbed. Now, how a four gets triggered is comparing themselves to others, which is part of that envy. Feeling personally rejected, I've mentioned that, being slighted, I mentioned that as well, and snubbed or feeling demeaned or expected to do low level ordinary jobs. That's you know, and, and actually doing that on occasion is a good balance for them. At the worst, they, they have exaggerated mood swings. They can be possessive, controlling, and demanding, envious, which often looks like criticism, demanding of attention, overly sensitive and misunderstood, a high maintenance person at worst. But what helps is exercise and creative expression being in the present moment, having appropriate boundaries, fun and laughter equanimity, internal scales are balanced.

Linda Frazee (44:48):

And at the best they are, a great team member. They are helpful to others. They're authentic. They call a spade, a spade, and they, they bring out the underlying issues that might be going on. And they, they can achieve genuine satisfaction in the present moment and are comfortable living in the ordinary, once they have found that equanimity. They can experience emotional resonance to all deep human feelings involved in caring, and distinctive excellent taste, natural ability to create beauty and intuition, creative and authentic. So and at work they like to, to express individuality and creativity, dislike rigid and repetitive work where feelings are left outside the door, best when the originality and authentic approach is, is appreciated. And it's interesting because even before I knew I was a four and I was on that speaking circuit, I used to talk about how we can't leave our feelings at the door that we have to they have to come with us. And that, how do you, how do you take them with you in a healthy way? So other questions From you, Bill.

New Speaker (46:03):

Yeah, no, I think that really covered the value that the four brings with the the, the pitfalls of the envy and the longing in, in this personality. So thank you very much for this. I, I do not have a follow up question, Linda.

Linda Frazee (46:27):

Okay. Well, I want to talk a little bit about how this will get in the way if you're an entrepreneur. So yeah, that's probably have lots, lots of ideas after what I've been saying. , And I know Bill, that that's a, a big focus for you. So obviously you know, you have to manage your feelings. So being aware of them, but not giving them too much credit. Noticing when they're showing or where cause fours are not good at covering up their feelings either. So if you have a, a four who's unhappy that day and they walk in the room, you're gonna know it right away. They're not they may not bite you and they might not sit down and cry, but you can tell that something's wrong. And so a four has to really work a little harder until they can, if you find yourself dipping into that rabbit hole of the negative feelings and the unhealthy feelings and getting yourself modulated, having a good routine. Bill's morning pages and all that morning things that, that he does are really helpful. Making sure that you, you take good care of yourself on a regular basis so that you can keep that scale balanced on both ways. Because otherwise not only will you have a hard time getting out the door, or when you do get out the door, you may find that people don't really respond to you as positively as possible. So it really is an internal journey and know that once you find that moderate place, that you can, you can live more there and then occasionally visit the other, and you wanna learn how to get back. That's the secret so that you don't sabotage yourself and you don't sabotage your work and you can keep yourself hopeful.

Bill Soroka (48:04):

What's the fastest route there for people,

Linda Frazee (48:07):

The fastest route. That's interesting. Well, I think I've already talked about it. I think it's allowing yourself to have your feelings and then timing it and saying, okay, that's enough for today. Now you're going to do something, whatever it will move the energy with yourself, which could be some form of exercise. Like Bill said, taking a drive you know, shifting your energy and knowing that you are into control of your energy and your feelings, your feelings are not in control of you. And really talking out loud to those feelings, it'd say, well, you, you know, you, this is never gonna work for you. It works for other people. It's sort of, you know, like this internal critic. And you'd say, look, I didn't ask for your opinion. , you know, that's not helpful. So you know, if I want your opinion, ask you, and if you speak this out loud, it really will quell and squelch that, that negative part that wants to bring you down into the rabbit hole that seems familiar.

Bill Soroka (49:00):

And I think that a gratitude practice could work for everybody, but it keeps calling to me that a gratitude practice for the number four could be a really clear path.

Linda Frazee (49:09):

It is essential. I'd say a that exercise gratitude and and looking up and, and just knowing that there's been some of the most famous people in the world and the most successful people in the world have been fours. So and I notice when you get into the victimization and the poor me and let yourself go there for a little bit, don't just say, I can't go there at all, or ital mushroom, and it'll come out in another way and some self sabotage. So that's why I'm saying it's a balance, and this is true for everybody, but even more so for the four, because they're so in touch with these feelings, they have ready access and the feelings can come up and just engulf them without even knowing it. So in closing, I have a couple of other quotes that I found that I thought were really, really good. And one of them is from Thomas Morton and he says, what can be gained by sailing to the moon if we are not about to cross the abyss that separates us from ourselves, this is the most important of all voyages of discovery. And without it all the rest are not only useless, but disastrous.

New Speaker (50:11):

Wow. Powerful.

Linda Frazee (50:14):

And my favorite, one of all, and this is really for the one on one fours, but I just love it. This is a, that's a subtype is, I may not be everybody's cup of tea, but I'm, somebody's double shot of whiskey.  

Bill Soroka (50:28):

Who said that?

Linda Frazee (50:31):

I think that was oh gosh, I forgot to write it down. I it might have been Billie Holiday again. I think it was Billie Holiday.

Bill Soroka (50:39):

I love that. It almost sounds like that. Oh, now I forget her name too.

Linda Frazee (50:46):

Lady Gaga. It sounds like a, it sounds a little bit like Lady Gaga.

Bill Soroka (50:50):

Theres some Gaga happening there too. One of those famous poets from back in the day anyway. Linda. That was awesome. Thank you so much for sharing so much about the four, which you can obviously very much relate to. I'm looking forward to our next conversation on the five as well. Guys, if you don't know what your Enneagram type is, that's okay. This is a long term investment of your time and energy to, to figure this out. And Linda has some amazing resources to help you self-identify what number you might relate with You can also join us in the VIP room of the where you'll have access to her website and resources as well. She also has a paid community called the Authentic Wisdom Community, which is packed full of resources and regular learning and education. Linda, we'll see you next week.

Linda Frazee (51:47):

Okay. Thank You, Bill.

Bill Soroka (51:48):

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