This episode further explores the "Heart Center" of the enneagram with the #2. Guest Linda Frazee shares her more than 40 years experience working with and teaching the enneagram in life and business coaching. Come meet, "The Helper!" Learn how giving without boundaries can lead to resentment and exhaustion.
Linda Frazee has over 40 years of experience as a professional speaker, business consultant and executive coach. She is the author, "Full Heart Satisfied Belly," and is founder of Positive Imagery, Inc., a personal and professional development company located in Scottsdale, AZ. Her professional training is in Transpersonal Psychology and Imagery.
Join the Authentic Wisdom Community at https://www.lindafrazee.com/authentic-community
12:43 It's like there's a lens over our eyes. And we assume that that's the way the world is because that's our perception. But it's just our perception.
14:16 TWOs attention goes to scanning for opportunities to be of service and ways to flatter others focused on other's perceived needs and how to meet them.
24:40 TWOs are probably the most prone to codependency. A female TWO, is a kind of double jeopardy for codependency. But codependency is something that can be cured and fixed. So it's not a permanent situation just in case those of you listening don't know what codependency is. It means that you care more about other people's needs in your own. So that sounds just like the two setups.
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Linda Frazee (00:00):
Any strength overused becomes a weakness. The pride, the satisfaction of being the only one to get the test done or make others feel good at the expense of themselves.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Welcome to the side hustle lounge. If you're looking for flexible ways to earn income, grow your mindset and live the lifestyle, you've always dreamed of, you're in the right place. So lower the lights. Grab your favorite beverage and join your host, founder of notarycoach.com and Amazon bestselling author of Sign And Thrive, how to make six figures as a mobile notary and loan signing agent, Bill Soroka.
Bill Soroka (00:45):
Cheers and welcome back to my guest this week. Linda Frazee. Linda is my own personal coach business coach life coach. She's also been doing this for over 40 years, helping countless others help figure out their path to greatness, both in business and life. In general. She's also founder of the authentic [email protected] And today we're talking again about the pitfalls of entrepreneurship by the numbers and those numbers are of the Enneagram. And today we're going to be talking about number two on the Enneagram.
New Speaker (01:25):
So Linda, welcome. And thank you so much for being here.
Linda Frazee (01:29):
Well, I'm excited about moving along with this, Bill because the Enneagram is a fascinating study and so much more than just getting to know yourself. It's getting to know your pitfalls, your blind spots and your triggers. And boy, I'll tell ya, if you don't know those, you probably have found that you may have been walking in the dark sometimes asking yourself, why did I do that? Or finding out why are those people so upset at me? I can't even imagine, I didn't do anything. And so, so the Enneagram shows you if you choose to look at it seriously, what's really going on there.
Bill Soroka (02:06):
Yeah, it has been a really a guiding light for me too. And it really boiled down for me in two results. You know, I took, I did that results inventory. I looked around at my life and I said, how come I don't have the results that I want. I, I feel like I'm working all the time, but I was not getting I wasn't, I was just churning water, not going places. So one of the things that we had talked about Linda is just introducing and an interesting tip about the Enneagram to help everybody get to know the Enneagram in each one of these episodes step-by-step. So what's something else people may not know about the Enneagram.
Linda Frazee (02:41):
Well this is not just about the Enneagram. It's about the people who are interested in finding themselves. So when you look at all these types that we're going through, and there are nine, the tip is you have to look at how you've been all your life. So last, our first one last week was about number three, which is somebody who works too much and can be a workaholic and, you know, is all about production. Well, we can all be like that sometimes for a certain period of time, maybe even for a year or two when maybe when you're starting a new business. But the three does it all the time. And it's been a trait throughout their whole life, even when they were a kid. If it was like learning how to read or how to color outside the lines or whatever they were that way always.
Linda Frazee (03:28):
So the tip that I'm saying today about the Enneagram, about finding yourself on the Enneagram is as you listen to these things that we talk about today, we're talking about the two who's known as a helper. As you, as you listen to that, you may say, well, I'm helpful. Yes. I've been like that. Well, it isn't just about, of course we're all helpful at times. It's about how much of the time is that the guiding principle of your life? So whether it's, I've got to do things, which is the three's production, or whether it's the two, like I've got to help people, I've got to be of service. That's, what's really critical. I've got to change the world. If that's it, and that's been all your life, then that might be a clue that that might be your home place. That's what I call your genetic predisposition. So the tip is, not so much that you sometimes do a trait, have a trait or, have a behavior or a motivation, but is it all the time? And that's why tests on Enneagram or just not all that good to find your type. They're not enough by themselves. You really have to apply this and go deeper yourself.
Bill Soroka (04:35):
Yeah. And that's one of the reasons I love the Enneagram in the first place, but two the, and the reason that point is so important is a lot of times when people are seeking, when they finally pick up a course, or there might be listening to this podcast or start reading a book, or they dive into those rabbit holes of something new it's because something hasn't gone right in their life. Maybe, maybe they've experienced some pain that they're trying to figure out. So if they base their entire assessment or development on that one time period, they might be missing a little piece of the pie or a huge piece of the pie.
Linda Frazee (05:11):
Right, because we all have patterns. And if you look back through your life, you'll see there's consistent patterns of maybe doing too much or not doing enough or not following through on something or having great ideas, but never getting them out there into the world. For instance, those are just a few things. And that, it wouldn't be something that is just happening now, if that's your, your essential Enneagram spot, it's something that has been through all your life. If, for instance, a sidestep, just a minute, if you were a nine and you have a lot of ideas, but, and you just can't seem to get out there with them. You probably had a hard time doing your homework when you were a kid. Or if your mom said you know, it's time to do the chores. You may have said, oh, I'll do them later and maybe forgot.
Linda Frazee (05:57):
So, so you know, and hasn't all, don't all kids do that sometime. Did you do that all the time? Is the secret.
Bill Soroka (06:03):
Ah, love that? All right. So let's dive in. Let's talk about the, two, the helper.
Linda Frazee (06:10):
Okay. So I want to give a little bit of substance to the background of this helper. We are diving into the first of the three different centers for the Enneagram, which are called centers of intelligence or what I call your default systems. And there's not one that's better than another. It's just the way that you're wired up. This is your hard wiring. This isn't the software of your life. It's your hard wiring. So if you are in this center of the heart type, which is the two, three and four, you're going to be more concerned about relationships to other people, other people's connections and how other people, what other people think of you and your image. Once again, aren't we all about concerned about those things to some degree, yes.
Linda Frazee (06:56):
Don't you have a friend or somebody who doesn't seem to be care, cares about that at all. Maybe they go out to, to breakfast or to lunch or to dinner, and they have combed their hair all day and you go, well, aren't you going to comb your hair? And they go, well, yeah, right. Oh yeah. I forgot about that. Or maybe no, not really. It's fine. The way it is. They don't care the way they look at all. I mean, they outer image. Of course, we're talking more about image than just the way we look, our clothes, our hair. But you know, so when I say the people in this image center, this heart center, it's called the heart center, the image center are all about relationships and what other people think of them because on some level they all are desperate for people's approval.
Linda Frazee (07:39):
And again, everybody's wanting somebody's approval. Most people are, but these people do it in a unique and different way. So we talked about the three last time. So the three is the center one of the, the three that are in that center; there's the two, three and four. And the two is called the helper, the pleaser and the giver, and the family of origin cause, and there is one suggested for each one of these types. It's not absolutely a hundred percent accurate for everybody, but it is something to consider, is that this child was raised in a family where they got a lot of oh, affirmation approval for helping. Let's say that they had an, they were the elder of a family where there were two or three or more, maybe more kids. Often this is the oldest child of a big family.
Linda Frazee (08:30):
And they are put into duty right away to help, you know, get the baby's bottle, you know, go find the diaper. Oh, can you hold the baby while I do this or that and the other? Oh, gee, you know sit with your sister or your brother while I run to the store. I mean, at a very young age. And so a lot of kids might've found themselves in a situation. And some of them may have resented. It may have some of them who said, no, some of them did a, such a poor job that they never got asked again. But the, the two has a genetic predisposition to be about other people to help, to be of service. They're called the helper, the pleaser, the giver. And of course, what do they get back in response, they get back approval, which is the elixer of life for too.
Linda Frazee (09:16):
It's like, oh, this is just what I've been needing. And so of course, if the parent or the caretaker says, oh gosh, Martha, you did such a good job. Oh, little Martha's like, oh yes, and what else can I help with? And her little eyes are rolling around, okay, what's next? Because I can get some more of that approval. And so she diligently looks for it. And of course the more she gives, the more approvals she gets. And so this goes around in a circle. So this family of origin, cause will start out very young. Now in a family where there's a lot of dysfunction. Sometimes it doesn't happen in this way that I've described it for the family. It may happen at school. Like the kid gets to school and becomes the teacher's pet and they could be, everybody's teacher's pet because they are the ones who have been watching the teacher.
Linda Frazee (10:04):
And that looks like the teacher's a little tired. Maybe the teacher needs a glass of water. Maybe the teacher needs one thing or another. And, and, and they, they serve the teacher and they're they help the teacher. And pretty soon the teacher is saying, can you stay after and clean up the desk? Of course I can. These are great volunteers. That's why they're called the helper. So, so you see there's a family, there's this genetic predisposition of the capacity to be someone who wants to help and, and loves that approval. And you may say, well, doesn't everybody once again. And the answer to that is no. Now it is true that statistically, there are more female twos than male. And that's part of the culture of our society in America, where women are supposed to be serving and supposed to be subservient and supposed to be taking care of people. And so there is that influence that cannot be discounted. However, the genetic predisposition is still there. And I know a number of males too. So that by itself, it doesn't mean if you're a man, you can't be a two. It just means that there are more female twos. So here's the…
Bill Soroka (11:12):
Talk about that for just a second. So are you saying that if the pre, genetic predisposition was not there, then these opportunities to volunteer and to help would still come to them, but they wouldn't jump on them and take advantage of them or it wouldn't be of interest to them. Is that what you're saying?
Linda Frazee (11:27):
Because and it, isn't, it's less about the opportunities, but it'd be like, I don't need that approval or I'm busy watching TV as a kid. I don't know. I don't want to, I don't want to go through grocery store with you. I want to watch TV. You know, so mom says, hey, come on with me, you know, little Johnny and, and you can carry the groceries when I come in, I just go, nevermind. I'm watching TV,
Linda Frazee (11:50):
You know? And so you catch, you babysit your, your sister while I go, such as no, I'm going to go play baseball. Sorry. No, no, no. I mean, there's it's. And even if the mom were to coerce him and say, well, you have to, because this is your duty or whatever, they would do it with resentment. The helpers of course, mom, I'd be glad to. Okay, so this is, this is the difference. That's a good question, Bill, because the genetic predisposition is there. And very, very often I will talk to somebody who's one of many kids in a family and they'll say, oh yeah, I helped and did all this. I said, well, did you have any other brothers and sisters that help? No, they wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole. They wouldn't do it. Well, what happened? Well, they, I don't know. They, sometimes they got grounded and punished, but didn't change them.
Linda Frazee (12:32):
They just wouldn't do it. So you know, so however we are, this is another tip that we could have used another day, but I'll add it and maybe we'll repeat it because it's so important; whatever lens we look through, there's a lens over our eyes. It's like we went to the store and got contact lenses and I'm looking through blue ones and bill is looking through purple and whoever's listening is listening, was looking through yellow or red or orange or green. And we assume that that's the way the world is because that's our perception, but it's just our perception. And so, you know, it's so interesting to me when people say, well, yeah, of course I helped. You know, and that's only natural and who wouldn't. I said, well, where your other brothers and sisters help? No way. They wouldn't. It's like sometimes the very beginning of, oh my gosh, I'd never thought of that before.
Linda Frazee (13:22):
You know, and there's a lot of thoughts about family systems and a family position. And that certainly is a factor, but I would argue that the very important thing is a genetic predisposition. So let me tell you a little bit more about this helper, pleaser, giver person, they have an unconscious belief that they come in with that's, that's based on what I've just mentioned, that it is, it is essential to be a helping caring person. It's just not, wouldn't be nice. It's essential. And their core concern is not being able to give, so their life strategy is focused on others' needs and wants and ignoring their own. They're also big on flattery. So, you know, twos will always mention that you had a new shirt or you have a new blouse or your hair just got cuddle. You look good today.
Linda Frazee (14:13):
You know, very, very complimentary. Now a lot of people are again, but twos are habitually and their attention goes to a scanning for opportunities to be of service and ways to flatter others focused on other's perceived needs and how to meet them. And then there's an underline under perceived because twos are so concerned about helping others, that they can imagine that other people need their help when they don't. And that can cause problems. They can be called intrusive because they assume, okay you know, some little lady might be walking across the street and a little older person, but they're doing fine. And, and this two person runs up and grabs her arm and helps them. The old lady is, what are you doing? I'm fine. Leave me alone. So that's different than somebody saying, let's say the little old lady says I have a little trouble seeing, cause somebody helped me across the street.
Linda Frazee (15:08):
Okay. Now two is right there, you know, but the two of you can see where they might jump into a situation assuming that they're needed. And again, it isn't about the need. Remember the Enneagram is about motivation. It's underneath, what's driving this, that under, that under aligned motivation is approval. And, and I will be a good person because I have to be careful, I have to be a caring person because that's essential in my life. The core values are re, relationships, love, generosity, and feelings. They feel things deeply and their strengths are that they're helpful and they're friendly and they're caring. They're supportive, they're empathetic. They're optimistic, obviously helpful. They're encouraging, they're intuitive about feelings and nurturing and they're warm hearted. Now I mentioned what they're looking for. And I gave the illustration of the two, seeing a little old lady across the street, but here's another example that I often use.
Linda Frazee (16:08):
And this is a good one to illustrate the difference between a two and a three, because they're both in the same center, the same heart center with different motivations. So let's say we have two, two people who are going to a after work event, and it's a little bit political, It's about you know, to celebrate the ending of a project. And the whole team is going and it's in a company is putting a lot of money into this after, after hours party, because they really want to reward the people and the two and the three are both going to it. Well, the three is going and they both know that if they talk to somebody there that that's going to be there, that they might even get a promotion or they may have an opportunity for a higher level job. And so they're both going, hoping to talk to this person.
Linda Frazee (16:54):
We'll say the person is Brian that they're going to talk to. They're hoping to, they don't have an appointment. They're just hoping in this social situation that they can talk to him. So they, so the two, the three walks through the door and sees that one of their close teammates is really obviously having a really bad time, because you can tell she's been crying and she's talking to somebody else and she's really upset. And the three can say, oh gosh, gee, that looks like Gina's having a problem. So, so she goes over the three goes over and says, oh, Gina, it looks like you're having a problem. She says, yeah, I just broke up with my boyfriend. It's really tough. And she said, I'm sorry about it. It gives her a hug and immediately looks for Brian and goes off to look for Brian.
Linda Frazee (17:33):
The two comes in and sees Gina crying. Oh my gosh, Gina looks so upset. She needs my help. Oh, gee. And she rushes right over and holds it for a very long time. So Gina, Gina, tell me all about it. And Gina starts telling her all about how she broke up with her boyfriend and how sad it is and all the details. And so the two just stands and listens and listens and holds their hand. Maybe they go and sit down so she could have more privacy so she can tell the whole story. And by the time the evening is over the two realizes she never got a drink. She never got anything to eat. She didn't see Brian. And she's been there with this, this Gina the whole time. The three meantime has met Brian, has put their foot in the door, has made sure that they had that opportunity and they're home in bed. So that's the difference between the two and the three
Bill Soroka (18:23):
That really paints an interesting picture. So it sounds like the two can be helpful almost to a degree where they hurt them.
Linda Frazee (18:32):
Yes, exactly. Which is exactly the whole point. Once again, any strength, overused becomes a weakness. And so that is the sticking point of the two that the pride, the satisfaction of being the only one to put the task, do you get the test done or make others feel good at the expense of themselves? So what gets blocked for them is a natural flow of giving and receiving with grace and sincerity and the experience of humility that comes with that. So same freedom. So,
Bill Soroka (19:05):
Okay. So let's talk about that a little bit. Cause you just said the gift of receiving do twos receive gifts or help very well?
Linda Frazee (19:16):
No, they're all about giving it's a one-way street. And unfortunately that drains them because there's so much focus about, I've got to give, I've got to give and they have this, we all scan for something unconsciously. And as I said, the two is scanning for who needs help. So she walks in the room and scans automatically. Most people don't even know they're scanning. It doesn't even, why would they it's like something they'd done all their lives. It's, I often use the illustration of like a, a goldfish in a, in a fishbowl. And assuming the goldfish could talk and you say, well, goldfish, tell me about the water. And I would say, well, what's water. They doesn't know what water is. It's just swimming. And so that's, our scanning is we're scanning all the time. And the threes are scanning for opportunities and high profile people and, and making sure they have the right connections that will give them more.
Linda Frazee (20:10):
And which is very handy if you're an entrepreneur. And sometimes that will really get them far along. That doesn't mean that everybody should be a three. It just means and there's of course, as I said, there's a strength and a weakness to that at the same time. But the two is, is so busy, focused on what other people need that they can forget their own needs. And that automatic scanning is like saying to that goldfish, what's water. You say, well, what are you looking for? People who need help? And the two will often say, oh no, no, they just come to me out of the blue. And sometimes they do. So, but what happens is that a two has to realize that you can't pour from an empty cup. And what happens is the two will end up giving and giving and giving to the point, and see there's an underlying sense of pride about this, because there's an assumption, again, looking into that colored lens, that's over the two's eyes that I'm giving. And of course when it's my turn, you'll give to me, but nobody gives like a two.
Bill Soroka (21:12):
Well in what an interesting it's almost a game they're playing. It's like, because they don't receive help. They probably rarely ask for it, but they want that option. And if they ever did, they would want to receive it. So that kind of leads me to the, my question is what if it's approval that these twos are seeking? What happens when they don't get it? When people don't respond the way that they did or give back the way that they did?
Linda Frazee (21:39):
Right. Well, the first thing is that this whole center is wanting that approval. And they're all three, but the two is the most upset about disappointing anybody. So a lot of another driver is by, gosh, I don't want to disappoint anybody, but unfortunately they're willing to disappoint themselves, not even knowing that because they're not in touch with their own needs at the lowest level. Now, by the way, there's a lot of twos that you're listening and say, wow, that used to be me. And now I've learned to do things differently and that's true. I'm sure there are a lot of people because all of these types, Bill, there's an unhealthy, a normalized and a very healthy, so there's three different levels of, of health about these, that, and we don't all just live in one. It's not like a picket fence that we climb over and now we're there.
Linda Frazee (22:28):
It's like, it's more fluid. And we, you know, sometimes we, we go back and forth in any given day, but we live more in one section or another. So what, what happens with this pride underneath everything is like this, this person who, that I gave you, the illustration who was sitting with Gina, goes home and says, gosh, I missed the opportunity to talk to Brian. But you know, I sat with, I was the only one who stayed with Gina. Everybody else was busy. They just left her there. But I was the one who sat with her and I stayed with her. So there's this pride that comes up. So the next time that this person this two goes to, and goes to an event and she's upsets she would expect that somebody would come and sit with her and be like that. And first of all, that they would notice. Not understanding that twos are also very good at hiding their own needs and their own feelings.
Linda Frazee (23:16):
So she would have to almost be hysterical before anybody would notice it, but let's say she goes, and she said, and she was saying, well, why isn't anybody paying attention to me? Don't they tell, can't they see I'm sad? And maybe she even goes and sits by herself quietly in the corner, hoping somebody will come, and nobody does because they've always got the idea that she's the giver. She's not the one in need. I mean, that's the persona. And so you asked what happens. Well, there's great disappointment, great, sad, great sadness, great resentment that look, I given this all this time to you and you didn't. And then ultimately at the most unhealthy level, I must be unworthy because nobody really cares about me. And even though I'm such a loving and caring person and I give, give, give, nobody gives to me. Well, there's lots of lots to unpack there, but I would say that when you over-give any of us, over-give, you're never going to get it back at that level.
Linda Frazee (24:16):
Maybe, maybe on occasion, but not on a regular basis. The two doesn't have a good governor when it comes to giving it, doesn't really understand the boundary issue of like, this is too much. I need to stay over on this other line. And that certainly is something they can learn just because this is a tendency. It doesn't mean that the two is stuck there. And again, there's, I should mention also, that twos are probably the most prone to codependency. And so a two, a female two, is a kind of double jeopardy for codependency, but codependency is something that can be cured and fixed. So it's not a permanent situation just in case those of you listening don't know what codependency is. It means that you care more about other people's needs in your own. So that sounds just like the two setups.
Linda Frazee (25:08):
So you can see how that's a double jeopardy. And codependents say, I'd be happy if only you would. So their idea, somebody else has to change for me to be okay. So yeah, that, that, that is you can see where that's a setup because then you're standing around waiting and you're trying to maybe change or influence or get somebody to look at something or take a workshop or go to therapy or whatever. But I can't be happy until they change. So there you are. You're, you're stuck in that. So if you already, already have a, to set up like that for yourself, and then you're codependent that's a double jeopardy. However, there's Coda, which is for codependents anonymous. People who recognize that this might be a problem for them, to go to there's books about this. You can certainly do some coaching or therapy about it, and it's something you can recover from.
Linda Frazee (26:01):
What does that look like? It looks, it looks like good boundaries, and that is also one of the key elements of a healthy two. So because, then you begin to say, I have needs myself. So when you said, what would happen if you're not, your needs or, you know, if you're you're so giving what happens when it's not reciprocated? Well, I mentioned all those sad feelings. If you go, oh, I guess maybe I have to make sure I get some of my needs met. Oh, that's an interesting thought. So for me to get some of my needs, I have got to draw my attention back away from everybody else. And let me let it come into myself and say, what is it that I need? And so in if we go back to the same illustration that I gave about going to the after hours party, say the number two person comes in sees Gina who's sad, goes to her and gives her a hug, really sits with her for about 10 minutes and says, I'm so sorry this happened for you, Gina. I'm starving. I've got to get some food. And I, and I, I want to make sure I connect with Brian. So I'm going to go do that. And then I'll check back with you before I leave. Okay. Here's a healthy two. So this isn't like you ignore Gina. It isn't like you pat her on the head and walk by. It's about learning that I can give to some degrees, but I'm not going to give up myself entirely.
Bill Soroka (27:23):
Hmm. That is an incredible strategy for this. And do we have an example of what the, how this might show up in your experience? What's a two look like as an entrepreneur or business owner?
Linda Frazee (27:40):
Well the the good news about, there's lots of good news. I don't want to paint a negative picture here because twos are hard workers, boy, I mean, to tell you, and because they are so focused on relationships, they are good at relationship selling. So I'm sure you all know what that means. I mean, they're, they're really building relationships, of all the types on the anagram they may be the strongest in that, in that vicinity. So they can, they can really you know, they, they know how to, like people, they know how to make people like them. Especially if they know good boundaries, they don't overstep their boundaries. So this, the more healthy they are, the better they're going to be at this relationship selling. And, go ahead.
Bill Soroka (28:24):
Yeah. I was just going to say, you know, what comes to me as you're talking about this is this sounds like somebody who really even cares about people. So they're probably more willing to go that extra mile for people. And remember that there's a human being on the other side of every name tag of every office position and role that might get a different connection with you.
Linda Frazee (28:44):
Exactly. They genuinely do care. I mean, it's not just like they're pretending to care. And I wouldn't say that a three pretends to care, but they're more concerned about getting the job done and they do care about the people, but, you know, there are also looking at the deadline that looms on the other side. And so sometimes as I mentioned about the three is you can someone can feel a little bit like they were a little aloof or they weren't really there. The two, there's always a standard way. I know when I have someone that comes in and sees me that says, they're dating somebody. And they'll say, when they talk to me, I feel like I'm the only person on the planet. And that's because they lock eyes with me and they listen, good listeners. Boy, these twos are right there with you.
Linda Frazee (29:25):
And so your, your heart tends to melt and you trust them and you really get, wow, they're really listening to me. And maybe it's the first time someone's ever really been listened to. And so from a standpoint of selling or, you know introducing something new to people that is a powerful, powerful tool, that's just a natural sort of proclivity that a two has. So from an entrepreneurial standpoint, that's what is one of the best things they bring to the, to the table. Now, the things they have to watch out for is over-giving. So because so health healthy two, who has this capacity to connect with people and remember people and know their names and care about them is a beautiful entrepreneur. However they have to watch that you don't overstep boundaries. So because sometimes twos will get their personal life and their professional life all wrapped up together.
Linda Frazee (30:25):
And they start hanging out with their people that they're doing business with, which again by itself is not a bad thing, except that the boundaries began to merge. And then, and maybe they start you know, babysitting the person's kids or watching their house for them or giving them special favors for business or something. And and then, then it begins to get blurred. And then at the worst, they step into a situation that was not appropriate. And that, then, then you have more of a problem. So an entrepreneur has to be sure if they'er two that they get clear about their boundaries. And sometimes if you're not sure about that in a situation you need to get some guidance like with your people who are notaries Bill, let's say that can you think of an illustration where maybe a two might overstep their boundaries there? That would be a good illustration?
Bill Soroka (31:17):
Oh, definitely. A two, in a estate planning situation or a power of attorney when maybe a deathbed signing when there's so much going on, the family emotions there, and the family needs some advice on how to fill out forms, or they need you to hang out for a little bit until witnesses or priest or someone else comes. I can I've known twos or presumably twos that hang out for hours without pay or cross the line between unauthorized practice of law, where they're giving advice, because they're, they get caught up in the moment. They just want to help people in that moment versus what they can legally do.
Linda Frazee (32:02):
Yeah. Right. Well, that's, that's a good illustration and I'm glad you had those experiences. I'm sorry that they did, but I'm glad that you had that to report because that gives us some more clarity. So the whole thing about the two is that they get blind to whether someone even wants their needs and they can get unaware that others can see, they're needing, you see, a two doesn't want to be needy. After all their whole persona is like, I'm the one who helps. I don't want to be the needy one. And so, but you can feel their neediness is kind of sticky sometimes. It's sort of like a Velcro patch. Like they want kind of Velcro to you to help you. And, you know, it's an automatic reaction. Like you start pushing away. And so people begin to push away and this is all energetic, very seldom in words, but the two doesn't understand well,
Linda Frazee (32:53):
And then when you say, well, are you mad at me? No, I'm not mad at you, but, you know, unless you're dealing with somebody, who's really got some good words and knows himself, well, they may not be able to say, I just feel like you were being intrusive. And yet that's really good feedback for a two. Because here's another illustration of being healthy or unhealthy. I like to use the illustration. And this is kind of an old show now, but some of you may have watched, I think it's called, what about Raymond? And…
Bill Soroka (33:22):
Everybody Loves Raymond.
Linda Frazee (33:23):
Everybody Loves Raymond. That's what it was. And he had this mother on there, Marie, and she was a caricature of an unhealthy two, because she manipulated tremendously. She'd say, oh, well, let's have a party because it's about you. But it really all invite all my friends and didn't invite any of his for instance. And it was always, there was this undercurrent and all family knew it and you could see it coming, but she always managed to do it. So that's an unhealthy two. The extreme example of a healthy two would be mother Teresa, someone who's giving and giving and giving with complete humility, not wanting to be recognized necessarily not needing anything except for the, the, maybe the funding of her projects for the people she was serving. So but most twos are somewhere in between. They're not mother Teresa and they're not threes. They're more normal learning how to distinguish when it's important to step up and when it is important to hold boundaries. Those would be some of the key elements for them. And, and being willing to show their neediness to other people, to ask for help when they need it. And, and noticing if they feel like they're overstepping their bounds and and learning how to receive, because it's like breathing, Bill, I mean, this is an age old illustration, but just imagine if you're only breathing out.
New Speaker (34:50):
You have to breathe in, you have to breathe it out. And so you have to receive.
Bill Soroka (34:55):
Well in part of the the big realization for me, cause I struggled with this too even outside of this. But when you deny somebody the opportunity to help you, you kind of deny them the gift of giving as well. And when I took adopted that approach, it really helped shift my thinking.
Linda Frazee (35:15):
Right, right. There's a, there's a great satisfaction, genuine satisfaction by giving and helping someone else, especially when you're not overdoing it. And and so learning to be a gracious receiver is a good thing for all of us to do, but it's essential for a two. Because then we start to get the inhale, exhale idea of life. Like I can receive, I can sit back and just receive and take in. And I flourish in that. In fact, the odd thing is as much as a two will really crave appreciation, they really don't want to be put up on the stage and have the audience, give them a standing ovation. Now three craves that, but a two is like, oh no, no, no, that's embarrassing. But they do want to feel like they're appreciated maybe at a business meeting with their team for them to say, I want to honor so-and-so for the work that they've done.
Linda Frazee (36:13):
Good. They can receive that. And that's the way you want to start. If you're a two, are you recognized as you're listening to this, that you're someone who has frequently had a hard time letting appreciation in and approval, start with small things. If you have a friend that you really trust, you might ask them, what do they see as positive things about you and just take a couple deep breaths as they tell you. So I'm, I can only take two or three, but listen, take in two or three and then kind of chew on them and let them let them resonate because it's really important. And I want to also talk lightly about the triggers, how they can get triggered, which we've already touched on, but it's still important when a two feels unappreciated or criticized, especially if they've worked behind the scenes a lot.
Linda Frazee (37:00):
And and maybe their good work hasn't really been seen because maybe they're, they're working for three, who is, who is taking all the credit and then being left out and nobody honoring them. That is a major trigger being left alone with nothing to do. Now, if you're introverted, if you're an introverted two, that's less troublesome than if you're extroverted, but extroverted twos is really want to feel that they have something to do and feeling their own neediness, oh, that's just miserable for them. They don't ever want to feel that, but they do. Not being able to help, I mean, that really bothers them if they're in a situation where nobody needs their help and situations where their feelings or anybody's feelings are just ignored where it's just business as usual and not specifically nobody really seems to care about how you're feeling.
Linda Frazee (37:52):
So, so if we talk about what's, what helps recognizing your own needs and meeting them without guilt and when a two starts, starts moving out of the unhealthy to a more healthy place, as soon as they start taking care of themselves, and sometimes they have guilt, but they can learn to get over that asking for help when needed giving them so giving yourself time to be alone and daring to express their anger directly instead of manipulating or acting passively aggressively. Because you know, if, if again, if there nobody was there when they were needed or they asked for help and they were ignored, they can really get angry. And sometimes a two will actually blow up. Now it isn't a frequent occurrence and it's always a surprise when it happens, but they can get really upset. And that's a little bit more about the next level of the Enneagram that we'll be talking about later on.
Bill Soroka (38:46):
Well, I'd like to talk about this a little bit more, cause I think it might tie in perfectly with one of my questions. So I know a few twos and the passive aggressiveness thing is, is real. And I think this ties into too how they are, how they're showing up that neediness factor. So I know some twos who often will come to me and they'll say, you know, I keep I, all these friends keep saying that they're going to hang out with me, but then whenever I call the schedule, they don't want to be there. Or this friend just won't talk to me anymore. Or this one blew up at me and I, there is this disconnect in how they're showing up. And I don't think they're reading their audience really well. So is that something that you can speak to? Did I ask the question the right way.
Linda Frazee (39:33):
Well, sure. The question is, is fine. It's just very broad. So I, you know, cause there's, there's specific differences of course, between people and, and that's that brings up the point that two, twos are not clones. They're not all the same, you know, it's not because you're a two, it doesn't mean you you've joined this group and you all have exactly the same personality. We're complicated human beings, but underneath it, all the motivation will be the same, how it shows up can be quite different. So from what you're saying, first of all, I wanted to define passive aggressive because even though that's a term that's bandied about often a lot of people don't understand what that means. Passive aggressive means that you do something and have a very aggressive thing in a very passive way. So I'm saying just shrugging, your shoulders is no, I don't care.
Linda Frazee (40:20):
It's a very passive sort of response, but it's very aggressive because you can tell they do care. Okay. It's like asking somebody to do something and them just forgetting it and then just say, oh, I forgot, but it's, but it was important to you. And so that is a very aggressive thing, but it's passive. So that's what passive aggressive is. So to start with. And so it depends on the health of the person, if they are not aware of the fact that they are being manipulative or needy and how they're neediness shows up might be like, well, we're all going to, you know, my mother's having us over for dinner and they said, gee, do you think I could come? Okay, well they just stepped in. They just crossed a boundary or they might say passive aggressively oh, I wish somebody would ask me to dinner. Okay. And so, so,
Linda Frazee (41:11):
And there you are and you're going, oh, okay. So now, you know, so then that puts the person who mentioned they were going to dinner in a bad position because what are they going to do? Invite somebody to their mother's dinner that, that, you know, so then they're forced to say, well, you know, maybe sometime you can come, but this is a, this is a special family occasion or something, but it, but it's it's, irritating, you know, and so the neediness can come out in ways like that. So I'd say that if you've had some response from people around you, that you can't figure out why it is that they're responding that way to you, the first thing is, is get your courage up. And even though it may be hurtful, ask them to tell you the truth, choose somebody who's not very rude and is not really overly angry because that can that can be really painful, but just say, you know, I really get that I must've done something to irritate you.
Linda Frazee (42:05):
And I really don't know what it is, but I really want to learn from this. So would you be willing to tell me the truth? So that would be my suggestion about somebody who's, who's finding themselves on the outside could find out. Now you have to make sure you ask somebody who is, you think is reasonably willing to tell you the truth. And if they say no, no, no, everything's fine. You can say, well, I know these kinds of questions are hard to answer. So I know you may feel put on the spot, but I really would appreciate it. So if you can't tell me now, if you can think about it and then get back to me, if there is anything, I'd really appreciate it, I need your help in my personal growth. Okay. So that, that would be what to do.
Linda Frazee (42:43):
Now, if you're somebody who's managing somebody who's doing this that's then it's your responsibility to build the responsibility in a kind and loving way to talk to them a little bit about boundaries and maybe passive aggressive behavior, because that is going to be a blind spot. They really don't see it. You know, we always assume that when people do things like that, they know exactly what they're doing and there may be occasions where they do, but if it's a blind spot, that's what a blind spot is. We really don't see it. We don't know about it. And so it's like shining a light, but you don't need to bring, you want a flashlight in there. You don't want to bring a spotlight and say, okay, so let me tell you all the things you've done that are wrong, you know, or the way you overstep.
Linda Frazee (43:27):
You want to bring a flashlight in and think carefully and whenever possible, and plan that out a little bit and give them, you know, some, some response. So let me talk about it from an entrepreneurial stance. Well, let's say that there's two people who are working on the same sort of project, maybe it's a side hustle, they're both doing, and maybe they're selling something, then there's a territory like one's supposed to be on the east side and one's supposed to be on the west side. And there's two keeps kind of moving over the line and grabbing customers and clients on the west side when they're supposed to be on the east. So you don't go in there and say, you idiot, what are you doing? Blah, blah, blah. You'd say, let's sit down and talk about some clarity about our, our, our boundaries around which side of the city we're working on, because it seems like we're running over each other and I want to get clear so this doesn't happen. Okay? So you see the difference.
Bill Soroka (44:18):
Linda Frazee (44:19):
And unfortunately what happens often is that the two will overstep boundaries, overstep boundaries, overstep boundaries, and whoever's dealing with them will just overlook it, overlook and tell them, or they can't anymore. And by this, the person is so irritated jump on them.
Linda Frazee (44:35):
And then, then the relationship has really fractured and the two feels so under misunderstood. And why didn't you tell me before? And I didn't know that. And they probably didn't, they really didn't or if they did, they pretending they didn't know, but there's, but then it's then the relationship is broken. So of course that's a good tip for everybody. And with whatever type you're dealing with to always deal with things that are lower level, catch it at the lowest level, because that's when it can be resolved without so much conflict.
Bill Soroka (45:04):
This is a really great example to circle back to how you started this conversation and is that we all have our, our own lens that we're looking at life and the, the habit or the natural inclination is to just assume that everybody is looking through life with the same lens and that's not it. And that's the whole point of conversations like this, Linda. So I'm so grateful for this because we get to learn that there's other ways of looking at life. Other people are having their own experience, and this helps us kind of look at life or be in their shoes for a little bit and see that there might be a different way of looking at this. And I have one more question for you on the twos, if you don't mind, before we wrap up here; curious about charging for services in your experience due to struggle with that?
Linda Frazee (45:56):
Yes. I think that again, once again, all types can struggle with that or most types I should say, but twos do struggle with it more. They struggle with it more because they see themselves as the one who's giving things away. I mean, I'm, and I give to them, I just give to, because I care about you, I give to you because that's a good person. And so charging and charging a fair price means I have to be willing to receive it. So I usually tell them to start out at a level that they can they can tolerate and then they can raise their prices later. You won't, you won't get very far with someone who doesn't feel there if they feel like they're the ones who should be giving all the time and not receiving. Let's say the thing that they're giving away is really worth $150, but they think they're worth 40. Okay. So you get them to start with like, let's start with 60. So, you know, tell people there's a trial rate and you can, you'll work with them for $60 an hour. And then after six months, or once you've tolerated that, then let's go to $75. And within maybe nine months or a year, you can get them up to $150, but their consciousness has to raise well, high enough for them to receive on a regular basis before they can really charge a fair price for their services.
Bill Soroka (47:17):
I love that their consciousness has to raise. I mean,
Linda Frazee (47:22):
Right. It's a stretching and you know I've got a couple of quotes that I want to give you for twos that I found that I think are really helpful. And one of them is sometimes you don't realize you're actually drowning when you're trying to be everyone else's anchor. So when you're trying to be that anchor for them, you're the one who's drowning. And the last thing I would like to say about that is that for those of you who have learned to hold healthy boundaries and receive to at least a fair amount, a person who feels appreciated will always do more than what is expected.
Bill Soroka (48:05):
That is so true. So true. What a way to end today with Linda Frazee, everyone, if you'd like to explore and do some research on the Enneagram, kind of read a few paragraphs about what each of these numbers are. One through nine, visit lindafrazee.com, or of course you can visit the sidehustleounge.com, join the VIP room and you'll have access to all the links and resources in there as well. Linda, thanks again for an incredible session talking about the twos.
Linda Frazee (48:38):
Thank you Bill. It was a pleasure.
Bill Soroka (48:41):
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