The Enneagram for SideHustlers & Entrepreneurs with Linda Frazee


As a solo-preneur, there is no difference between you and your business. To grow your business, you MUST grow yourself. The enneagram is THE deepest personality system on the planet and if you take the time know yourself through its road map and philosophy, it could change your life and business. Listen in to the first episode with enneagram expert, Linda Frazee, to hear the basics of how the enneagram works and why you might use it to grow your sidehustle. Then, tune-in for more episodes where we dissect each number of the enneagram and how they can avoid some of the pitfalls of entrepreneurship.

Guest Information:

Linda Frazee has over 40 years of experience as a professional speaker, business consultant and executive coach. She is the author, "Full Heart Satisfied Belly," and is founder of Positive Imagery, Inc., a personal and professional development company located in Scottsdale, AZ. Her professional training is in Transpersonal Psychology and Imagery.

Join the Authentic Wisdom Community at

Episode Highlights:

11:31 You don't change your type, but you do develop in your type and then you spread out. Really, you lead with a certain type. And in my opinion, there are five major factors in your life that have come together that have created you in order to get your needs met leading with a certain type….

27:34 We almost think that it's a destination, but it really is a journey. And we don't get to a point where we get it all figured out. I think a lot of people are expecting that and they put a lot of pressure on technology, like the Enneagram, or DISC, or Myers Briggs, or any type of spiritual dogma or any of that. And it's not the end all be all. it's just another tool to learn to get to know yourself better and better.

30:31 The ultimate reason to even do the Enneagram is to find yourself - because if you continue to work it, you'll be able to embrace the highest and the best of all these types.

--- Full Raw Transcription Below ---

Linda Frazee (00:00:00):

I would say that what the Enneagram can help you with is find your way of getting out of your own way. So you can deeply trust yourself and follow your own wandering duck.

Introduction (00:00:11):

Welcome to the SideHustle Lounge. If you're looking for flexible ways to earn income, grow your mindset, and live the lifestyle you've always dreamed of, you are in the right place. So lower the lights. Grab your favorite beverage, and join your host, founder of and Amazon bestselling author of “Sign and Thrive: How To Make Six Figures As A Mobile Notary And Loan Signing Agent,” Bill Soroka.

Bill Soroka (00:00:45):

Cheers everyone. And welcome to my next guest, Linda Frazee. I'm so excited to have Linda here. She's a personal coach, a business coach and my own personal business coach. She's been doing this for about 40 years and I've been working with her for several of those years. She's also an expert on the Enneagram, which we're going to get a chance to talk a little bit about today and she's the founder of the Authentic Wisdom Community at her website, Linda, thank you so much for joining me here today at the Side Hustle Lounge.

Linda Frazee (00:01:21):

Thank you for having me Bill. I'm looking forward to telling these people all about the Enneagram today.

Bill Soroka (00:01:27):

Well, I am too. I'm so excited. Number one for you, you're the wisdom, the knowledge, the insight that you've brought to my own personal life has been life changing. Our work together has given me so much insight into my own behavior, how I was functioning in life and in business. And I, I, I think so much credit goes to you just putting up the mirror for me to see how I was showing up to kind of turn some things around. It's no secret that I struggled in business definitely in life as well, partly because of that with 26 different business failures. And I really was struggling with the Shiny Object Syndrome, the FOMO, you know, that Fear Of Missing Out. I love to do the fun part of businesses. And then when things got too heavy or too hard, or I lost interest in it, I was moving on.

Bill Soroka (00:02:27):

So I have all these failed experiences and endeavors. And the work that you and I have done, and a lot of that was tied right into the Enneagram, was absolutely life changing. So thank you for that, Linda. Thank you for, and for our continued work together, helping me identify myself as a number seven changed everything for me. So I knew what my strengths were, what my weaknesses were, so I could strengthen them or bring in support where I was weak. And it, I think the most life changing part for me was letting go of some of that shame I was feeling, because I was different than what society or even my family thought I should be. Thinking I should be a specialist and I was definitely a generalist. So, that said I know there's going to be lots of questions, Linda, because as popular as the Enneagram is right now, there's still a lot of people that don't know what it is. So what is the Enneagram?

Linda Frazee (00:03:29):

Well, the Enneagram is a map. It's a roadmap of, of a self understanding. And I want tol tell everybody a little bit about how I found it myself about 35 years ago in Denver, Colorado. I was a professional speaker on a national level and I was using the Disc and the Meyers Briggs and a, a variety of, of those instruments and kinds of personality setups in order for people to understand themselves. And I was relatively satisfied with those. And then I encountered the Enneagram and my first thought was, wow, this gives you so much more information. That was my first thought. I was excited about it. The second thought was, wow, this reveals a lot about yourself, that you might not want your boss to know because I was working, like I said, with a lot of corporations and number three, I thought this has to be taken into a really healthy environment in order for this to be like a, at a, a workplace or a company.

Linda Frazee (00:04:27):

And I also did a lot of work for the government for them to really receive this and use it. So I was excited about it, but I was also doubtful about it. Well, let me tell you that over the last 35 years, I have come to realize that the Enneagram is by far the most, most powerful self Discovery method of a personality understanding because it goes so beyond just personality that that's on the planet currently. Well, I've watched it grow and it grew slowly and it grew slowly with me taking it into business and just trust it that business would accept it. And that people wouldn't take advantage of other employees. If they found out you would be a helper and that you would maybe clean the dishes up every time or that you wouldn't be the one who would make sure everything was right, if you were a perfectionist, but that you could value people's strengths and also a wonderful tool to help grow your people. Because it helps you identify in a business situation where your weaknesses might be.

Linda Frazee (00:05:31):

So over a number of years, as I mentioned, I began to understand you could take it into business and it could be very, very successful. Now I also had an opportunity to teach it at the Maricopa County judicial system here in Arizona to the superior court judges. And I just finished a contract with them. I just resigned from that contract because I've been doing it for 15 years. Wow. So what we did there is have every judge who, who wished to do this to find their Enneagram type. And then I filmed them while they were on the bench in live court proceedings at a time that they chose where they were feeling insecure or angry at the people in front of them, or upset with the lawyers that might be appearing before them or what they called repeat offenders, who came back over and over, and weren't really listening to them. And that they were afraid that their, their type would show up and guess what it did.

Linda Frazee (00:06:28):

So I would film them, watch that, and then go back into their chambers with them and show them the video that I took of them. And they could see so much more clear than if if I just told him that, you know, all of us are sort of like that somebody might say to you, well, you know what you did was, oh, I didn't do that. Well, I could tell you're angry. Oh, no, no, no, I wasn't. I didn't show that at all. but it's a whole different thing. When you see yourself now. Wouldn't it be handy if we could all do that. Wouldn't be nice. If I could walk around and film you in some of your most difficult situations with your family or with your, your career or with you trying to, to influence someone, and then I could show it to you and say, okay, so what I see here is your type getting in the way.

Linda Frazee (00:07:13):

So that's kind of a broad brush approach to work whether you are you know, creative type person, whether you're an entrepreneur, whether you're working in an industry of any kind where just being able to see yourself more clearly is the first step of what the Enneagram is. Now, I know this is a lot of words. So let me tell you a little more about the system. The system itself on the surface seems pretty simple, but remember that just like going to school, you have to start at kindergarten. You don't start with advanced calculus on your first day in school. So when I talk about it to begin with, you may think, oh gosh, this is ultimately too simple. Well, let me tell you, as I said, it's just the beginning. So the Enneagram is a, a personality assessment that you make yourself.

Linda Frazee (00:08:02):

And I don't believe in tests. If you go online, you'll find all kinds of tests. If you go to my website, you'll find nine paragraphs that you can look at and see which three you most identify with. And that's a way of beginning to look at what type you might be on this system. But I don't believe in tests because tests make you, well, first of all, there, there's about 85% of the tests you miss type on them. And so then you are thinking you're one type when you're not, and you miss the possibility of really understanding yourself deeply and your own self development. What I do believe in is you finding yourself by looking at your whole history and how you've been through your life. Like this would be interesting Bill. So let's talk a little bit about how that was for you. You mentioned the shiny object and about your businesses, but when you look back through your whole life, you know, because Bill didn't find himself easily right at first either. I mean, like he took, it wasn't after our first meeting, he went, oh, well then I know I'm a seven we'll know that, you know, he really worked at this. And so tell him a little bit about how that shiny object aspect of you showed up in, in, in our early conversations.

Bill Soroka (00:09:13):

Well, the problem with me personally is that I rarely meet an idea I don't love. So I would be presented with an opportunity and I'd say, yes, let's do it. And then another opportunity would come around. I'd say, yes, let's do it. And then suddenly I've got this plateful of opportunities. And then I start to shut down because I can can't move forward. I don't have enough energy to do them all. And that showed up in business that showed up in personal events. I was the king of, yes, I'll be there. And then I'd be hold up at home, not doing anything. I had said yes to a dozen things on one night, and then I'd end up doing nothing.

Linda Frazee (00:09:53):

Right. And now if we look back into your, say teenage years, how did it show up then?

Linda Frazee (00:10:00):

Lots of different hobbies and interest, lots of different books, you know, I guess that would be a constant for me too, is I, I I'm usually reading 10 or 15 books at a time that showed up then too. I would oftentimes have tons of hobbies. So I had equipment for making root beer at home. I was playing football, baseball, played the trumpet was into hiking, camping, shooting, you know, everything I had, right. Lots of different ,

Linda Frazee (00:10:32):

That's, that's a perfect illustration. And I don't think I ever, I didn't know about the root beer making. So that's interesting.

Bill Soroka (00:10:38):

Well, my dad brewed beer, so I started brewing root beer.  

Linda Frazee (00:10:43):

I'm not at all surprised. Well, the reason I asked Bill about that is because it, this is the way it works with the Enneagram. You look at your whole life. You don't look at what you're doing in the job right now. You're not looking at what this new career might be. You're not just looking at what side hustle will work for me right now. You're looking at how have I been all through my life? And this illustrates a very important aspect of the Enneagram. It's not about your behavior. It's about your motivation. What was running the show underneath that? Your motivation has been with you all your life. Now, that takes us back to there's nine types on, on this system, no type is better than another. Each type has strengths. Each type has challenges, of course. And also there is a principle in this, this study that you don't change types.

Linda Frazee (00:11:31):

You don't, you can't be a five when you're a kid and seven while you're a, a teenager and an eight, when are an adult. However you do develop in your type. So let me say that again, you don't change your type, but you do develop in your type and then you spread out. Now I want tol correct my own language. I'm talking about your type as if this is all you are, is your type, and that's not accurate. You lead with a certain type. There have been five major factors in your life that have come together. In my opinion, that have created you in order to get your needs met leading with a certain type. So let me go over those five types. And that's why taking just a test, as I tell you these, is not just the, the ideal way of finding yourself.

Linda Frazee (00:12:18):

So the first one is your genetic predisposition. And any mother of two or more children can tell you that there's a clearer evidence in the crib, and now science supports that, that there is a genetic tendency that you're born with. So some babies are more risk takers and others are very cautious, some cry, a lot, some don't, some get angry, very easily, you know, some, some babies just sleep through the whole day and smile all the time. So this evidence has been well substantiated that there is a genetic predisposition. That isn't the whole story, but that's a beginning. And it doesn't mean that if you have a genetic predisposition, you can't shift and change it. For instance, I was very shy as a child. And and as I said, I became a professional speaker. The first time my mother saw me on a stage with about 500 people.

Linda Frazee (00:13:13):

She about, you know, her mouth just fell open because she was going, this was my shy little girl. She couldn't believe that I was up there. So, so there's, you're not locked into your genetic predisposition, but it's a factor. And along with that, genetic predisposition are a lot of strengths. So it's important to understand that. The second thing is your family of origin and that's who raised you, whether that was your grandparents, an aunt and uncle, your a single parent, both parents, however, it was for you, that's your family of origin. And so your genetic predisposition meets your family of origin. And if, if, well, in the ideal situation if you are encouraged to be your view and all those strong traits and that the people around you could see that there were some other things that needed improvement and they encourage you toward that, that would be the very best situation.

Linda Frazee (00:14:05):

However, that doesn't always happen. Fortunately, it happens more now than it did many years ago. Because people who are having children are much more aware from variety of ways about the best and highest and best way to raise children. When I was a child and when I was raising my children, there was only one book available about what to do and it was very limited. So, so here you are, you have your genetic predisposition means your family of origin, and then how dis, how dysfunctional your family of origin is a factor. I'll say that again. You have your genetic predisposition that means your family of origin, how functional your family of origin is, is the third factor in you Discovering what type you are. So let me give you an illustration of that. So let's say that you are a introverted child born into an ex, an extremely extroverted family.

Linda Frazee (00:15:03):

And and you just, all you want to do is stay in your room and read books and do puzzles and, you know, maybe make model airplane, and now it would be Legos or, or now it would be on the computer. But your parents are athletic kinds of people who want to be out doing things and going places and having parties. And you have no interest. If you don't know about the Enneagram, if you are not really fully knowing yourself, well, it would be easy to think there was something wrong, your child, there's obviously something wrong with this kid. I mean, he, or she's not like me. I mean, obviously they should be like me, they're my child. And so there's could be some shaming that could start, you know, about what's wrong with you. Or maybe we should see a psychiatrist. Maybe there's some problem there.

Linda Frazee (00:15:49):

Why do you always want tol stay in your room? Now that that's a real big problem right now because of COVID 19, which is what we've been through. Everybody's been in their rooms. So that isn't the best illustration right now. But generally speaking, you get what I'm saying. Now, let's do it the opposite way. Let's say you have a very extroverted kid who wants to have the parties at their house and want tol have everybody over there running through the house with the basketball, making lots of noise. They want the dog in the house, the dog is barking. They're, they're playing, they're having a good time. And, and the parents practically have their hands over their ears going, why do they have to come over here, go outside. What's wrong with you? Why are you so noisy? Now, those are two just basic ideas. And you can understand that there are thousands of different ways that we are genetically the same and different than our parents, but how it's handled is the, the is another factor. So yeah. So you have your family of origin and then you have how dysfunctional or functional it is. Do you have anything you want tol say about that, Bill?

Linda Frazee (00:16:52):

No. At the, that was such a great demonstration of the function and dysfunction in there. So that was perfect. What's the, what's the fourth one?

Linda Frazee (00:17:00):

Well, the, the fourth one is of course your self talk. And so, you know, if you are, by the time you are about seven, you've decided who you are and your family's decided who you are. And so, so and that could be entirely incorrect based on just some of the factors I've given you as an illustration. So that's another kind of wall of the box that gets created about where you think, who you think you are and what you can do in your life. From a, let's talk a little bit about being a sole proprietor or an entrepreneur. Let's say your parents are salaried people who go to jobs every day and they get their paychecks and they have some fear around money. And they have fear about the economy. And so they say things all the time about, well, you know, when you grow up, you gotta get a job, you gotta get a good paying job.

Linda Frazee (00:17:48):

You know, know, you gotta find a good boss, let's get your career going you know, if you get a job, never leave a job until you've got another job, you know, and oh, I'm afraid that I'm going to get laid off. I mean, all these subtle and not so subtle things that go on in a house are giving you messages about how it's safe to be in the world. And so your, your own self talk, maybe picks that up and says, okay. So when I go out in the world, boy, I gotta make sure I make some money. You know, I've gotta do whatever I can. And, and, and it better be a salaried position, you know, because that's the only thing that's safe. So the self talk comes from many, many people believe that by the time you're seven, you've pretty much decided who you are and your parents have who you are, or your caretakers.

Linda Frazee (00:18:30):

However you know, I believe that continues on by these other influences. And so by the time you're, and then there's a rebellious stage as a teenager, and you're not going to be anything like what they told you to be . So that's all about in the self talk and finding yourself. And then the fifth one is your, how much emotional, psychological, and spiritual development you've had. So now that would seem like a positive thing. And of course it is, but if you've done a lot of that through the years, let's say you've been a seeker for many years, developing yourself, trying to, to look at these things about how am I, where are my strengths and my weaknesses. By the time you get to looking at the Enneagram, you've been in correcting your own behavior for a long time. And so in that self-correction mode, let's say you have an anger issue and you tend to get angry and over reactive triggered by minor things, you know, and that's got you into some trouble, let's say. Let's let me, maybe you got divorced because of it.

Linda Frazee (00:19:28):

Maybe you got fired because of it. Maybe you've had some fights with your best friends, maybe your, all your relationships have struggled with your anger. So somewhere along the line, you might went, okay, I better do something about this. And so maybe you've done some work with that in a variety of ways. So if I ask you now, okay, so what's your relationship with anger? You say, oh, well, you know, in the past. I had some problems, but it's fine now. And it seems like the, a distant past, it doesn't seem like it's something that's showing up in this life right now. However, how much of your energy is going to ameliorating that every time it shows up. So those are five major factors, and I'll go over those again. So there's your genetic predisposition, your family of origin. Your third one is how functional or dysfunctional that family of origin is. Fourth one is your self talk. And the fifth one is how much development you and spiritual, emotional, and psychological development you've done over the years. So that's why we don't think a test by itself is enough for you just to come up with a type.

Bill Soroka (00:20:32):

No Kidding. Well, I mean, what a huge demonstration of the number one most valuable thing I see with the Enneagram is that it is deeper than anything I've ever seen. And it does force you to go deeper within yourself to kind of get to the root, the motivation that is driving the show, as you said. Do you find that, that it almost hinders the adoption of Enneagram? Do you think people resist it because it is so deep and they'd rather maybe not go that deep?`

Linda Frazee (00:21:08):

Well, I'm sure there's some of that, but the thing of it is you know, because I said like, we're in kindergarten right now, when we're talking about it, and I'm, I'm putting this out at a very advanced level. So there's a lot of people who teach the Enneagram just at the surface level. And I, I want tol mention something else. The Enneagram has been more and more popular as yours have gone on by, but it's been at a slow peak until about 18 months ago and it hit critical mass. And for those of you who don't know what that means, it means that any idea that it's like, you know, you've heard like you ha hear the same idea, five or six times or 12 times or whatever, before it really lands in your head or in your, your activity. Well, whatever that is, it happened. , I think the pandemic actually encouraged that because people had time at home to really look a little deeper and they were more motivated to look at themselves at a deeper level, because you had to, in order to survive, not just physically, but just psychologically and emotionally you know, whether you were isolated or you, you, you couldn't do what you wanted, you know, because of the pandemic and all the restrictions.

Linda Frazee (00:22:11):

So over the last 18 months, the Enneagram has absolutely gone wild. So yes, if you're listening and you say, well, this all sounds too deep to me, this sounds like therapy. I don't want tol do that. You can still get benefit by staying at the lower levels of understanding of this. At the very least. If you find your type and find what type you lead with and how you can develop that, it will give you some information about your strengths and your weaknesses, and probably answer some of those questions that you've asked yourself before. Like, why do I do that? It probably will, will benefit you so you can be more successful in every aspect of your life. That would be the least that could happen. Now, if you are a serious seeker and you really want to undo deeper thoughts and things that have gone on, and you want to be more successful yet you have the opportunity of going deeper.

Linda Frazee (00:23:04):

And I've been doing this now for 35 years, and I still am learning from the Enneagram. I supervise people who are getting, who want to get certified in this, and I've been doing that for a number of years. And and they're all teaching me wonderful new things. And there's a lot of young people who are just taking this out in major ways. If you search on the Enneagram, you're going to find more things than you can imagine. There's new books being printed practically every day. So, so it is now overtaken, the Myers Briggs, and the Disc, as far as popularity. The, the Disc does have a nice little test that you can take and it tells you. But I want to, and I taught the Disc for many years and it's a good instrument and no way do I want to make it wrong, but I will say that if you're wanting to really know yourself at a deeper level, the Enneagram is really the answer.

Linda Frazee (00:23:54):

So, you know, an answer to your question, Bill. I know that was a long answer. I would also say that the more, probably of all the factors, if you have done some interpersonal work, if you've done any therapy, if you you've been spiritually, probably one of the biggest things is finding yourself, you know, if you've done all that work, because you think you've done it, you think, you know yourself, let me give you an example for myself. When I found the Enneagram, I was a psychotherapist. I was in private practice. I was on the national speaking circuit. I was teaching relationship workshops. I had done a lot of, received, a lot of therapy myself. And if you'd asked me, I would've said, yeah, I know myself well, but you know what? There were some pieces missing. There were some things that still, I wasn't quite sure why I did why I did.

Linda Frazee (00:24:43):

And it was always, you know, they would come a up and they would puzzle me like, you know, that's interesting. I wonder what that's about. And even in all this work that I had done and spiritual work, I didn't really have an answer for those. And when I really found my type and my subtype, which is another level of the Enneagram, it all came together. And as Bill was talking about his shiny objects, it came together for me and just this click and these pieces of the puzzle came together. Now, I won't tell you that every piece of my puzzle is still all together, because this is a lifetime work, you know, of, of finding ourselves and developing ourselves. But it really has made a, a major difference. And from a standpoint of my ability to work with others and stay focused on my work, it's important.

Linda Frazee (00:25:29):

Let me give an illustration of that. I'm a four on this, this system. And the four, like Bill's issue is like the shiny object and going off. Well, the four is about feelings. It has to feel right. You know highly intuitive, which is a good strength at times. But just imagine for a minute, if you're not a four, if you had to do things every day, that didn't feel right, you know, you have to do 'em anyway, if you have a job where you're getting paid and you gotta show up and there's a criteria you gotta meet, well, you better do that. You know? Well, that may be one of the reasons I've been self-employed for 40 years. Because, you know, I wanted do it my way and when I felt like it. And and that's, that was on some level, that's an advantage, but on another level, it is not because when you're self-employed, you still have to do a number of things.

Linda Frazee (00:26:20):

And I would resist a lot of those things that I didn't want to do or do at the last minute and hastily, and maybe they weren't so good at the last minute. Maybe some of you can relate to that. That doesn't mean just by that you would be a four, but that was in my way of me being really successful. I remember I was selling real estate before I started this business and I was getting ready to go work it out of my house, which was something rarely done in those days with this new venture, my new business. And I, somebody came in my office and in those days they had, you had real estate books. You didn't, it wasn't online. So you had these great big books and they were stacked practically to this ceiling. and I think I said to somebody like, well, when I work at home, I guess I'm going to have to be more organized. And she said, yeah, what makes you think you're going to be any more organized at home than you are here? And I thought interesting thought right after all. I didn't feel like cleaning that up. You see? So anyway, that gives you an idea too. But let me tell you a little bit more about the system as a whole. Obviously you can see that I could go on forever about this. So Bill, if you want to add anything to this before I go over the general system.

Bill Soroka (00:27:34):

Yeah, I would - before we get into the, the nine different numbers, first I just want to talk a little bit about what you just mentioned. I think there's this, I think the challenge comes from people who have been on the personal development path or the spiritual development path or any type of development path, right. Is we almost think there's it's a destination, but it's really, it really is a journey. And we don't get to a point where we get it all figured out. And I think a lot of people are expecting that and they put a lot of pressure on technology, like the Enneagram or DISC or Myers Briggs, or any type of spiritual dogma or any of that. And it's, it's not the end all be all it's just another tool to learn to get to know yourself better and better and better.

Bill Soroka (00:28:21):

And, and the other thing, before we talk about the, the numbers, I'd like to hear your perspective on this, Linda, is a lot of people are turned off by personality systems because they think these classification systems put us into a box. Can you maybe address that concern first, because before we start talking about the different numbers?

Linda Frazee (00:28:47):

Sure. I'd like to talk about both of those things. One of the things that the Enneagram does is help you relate to yourself compassionately. And when you find that you lead with a certain type, you have good reasons to lead with that type and there's strengths and weaknesses, as I said to all. So, it, it really is, it actually relieves a lot of pressure. And so that shame that you've been feeling all your life, you spoke to it briefly, Bill, when you said you realized you were different than the people in your family. And, and you know, when you find there are other people who think the same way you do and address life the same way and react in, in the same way, there's such a relief. So there's a pressure to figure it all out, but there's also the compassion for yourself when you find out, okay, I am not terminally unique.

Linda Frazee (00:29:37):

I am my own person. I'm not a clone, but I, I am one of many, you know, yeah. And then there's, there's aspects of myself that I can grow. And there's a roadmap, as I said, this is a roadmap to say, well, now I can develop this and that and the other. And, and it's really, really a beautiful thing. So I'd say that's the first thing. The second thing is that when people say, I don't like any of the systems, cause they put me in a box, whether it's a, you know, ENTJ or whether it's a, a DI or it's a, an Enneagram number, they don't want to go there because they think that's limiting. What I often say, especially about the Enneagram is you're already in a box, you know. You're in the box of these five things that I've mentioned and you don't know it. , You're in your genetic predisposition and yet family of origin and what you believed about yourself and all the experiences you've aquired.

Linda Frazee (00:30:31):

And you're, you're in that box already. What the Enneagram does is help you identify them. So you can open doors and windows and you have access and you can knock down some of those, those walls, the ultimate reason to even do the Enneagram to find yourself is because if you continue to work it, you'll be able to embrace the highest and the best of all these types, but that's a lifetime work. This is a body. And it doesn't mean like you have to go to a class every week or something. It doesn't mean you're in school all the time. It just means that it's a development and an unfolding. And there have been many people who have, have developed highly in their lives. And the most important thing is feeling less shame, feeling good about yourself, really being able to relate well with others, to be the best version of yourself, that you came here to be.

Linda Frazee (00:31:24):

And in order to do that, that is you know, a gradual sort of thing. It's not just, you don't, like you said, it's, it's not just finding the holy grail. It's about opening doors and windows that where you have been locked into it. Just, just think about, just do use this analogy of what we've been doing during this pandemic. I mean, people have, you know, have had to go home and stay in their houses and realign their, their whole work and their life, you know, in a different way. And now hopefully it's shifting and changing and people can go out more. But it's, it's kind of like that, you know, you, we went home and we thought about what was going on now we're going to open doors and windows and we're going to go out. .

Bill Soroka (00:32:07):

Yeah, I see.

Linda Frazee (00:32:08):

And so, so it isn't about somebody putting you in a box. It isn't about putting yourself in a number on the Enneagram. What it's about is discovering how you have limited yourself, how you've been unconsciously limited and how you can, unlimit yourself.

Bill Soroka (00:32:25):

What a beautiful answer and a perfect segue to get into what exactly we mean by these Enneagram numbers.

Linda Frazee (00:32:32):

Well, thank you, Bill. And so what this all means is that because of these five factors that, that I mentioned, we have a, a tendency to what I'd say lead. So you're not, like Bill is not a seven he's much more than that. This is one of the factors in Bill's life. I'm not a four, I'm not just a four. That would be a very limiting way to look at it. I lead with a four. Bill leads with a seven and sometimes he leads with other numbers because we don't just have one. We have a very strong relationship with five numbers to begin with which is going to, we'll talk a little bit about in the next segment. But that, what that means is that we have like personality money in the bank. You know, it's almost like we have an account with, you know, so let's say $500,000 and we don't even know it's there.

Linda Frazee (00:33:23):

And, but you can, once, you know, it's there, you can go to that account and you can pull up the highest and best of your personality. So let's talk a little bit about the, the nine numbers. So on this system, there are nine numbers. And they each have various teachers call them different things. I'm going to give you the, the most popular names. If you read a lot of books on 'em, you'll find that the there's synonyms to these names, like the number one is called the perfectionist in some systems is called the reformer in others. And the one is the person who is able to see errors and is able to correct them easily and in themselves, but has a very strong, critical, critical parent inside. And and they are always surprised when they find out that everybody else doesn't.

Linda Frazee (00:34:15):

Now we all do to some degree, everybody has an inner voice that says, don't do this, don't do that, that right. That wasn't but the ones is, I always say that the ones internal critical parent has a hatchet. They're very, very, very cruel to themselves about, you will do this. You won't do that, which makes them very excellent workers great students, you know high integrity. They're going to do what if you ask 'em to do something, boy, they're do it and they're going to do it right. But even the smallest, tiniest mistake, you might not know it, but they beat themselves up horribly. So and they, what's driving them is the underlying belief that good people are rewarded and bad people are punished. And so they must be a good person. Now you can begin to, when you hear that you can get, hmm, that might have come somewhat from their parents probably did, but it also is a genetic predisposition.

Linda Frazee (00:35:08):

The number two is the helper. This is the person who often in their family of origin you know, learned to get attention by helping mom and dad or their caretakers with whatever was needed around the house. And then the, the parents said, oh, wow, that's fantastic, thank you so much. And then I think their little ears perk up. I go, okay, what else could I do? And so this, this little child has learned early on that the best thing to do is help others. And that's a very good strength, especially in this world, we've needed a lot of help from others. However on the other side of this, they tend to forget themselves. So they are busy about helping everybody else and not so much for themselves. And they get a sense of pride about being the one behind the scene. Sometimes, sometimes they're out in the open, but more often behind the scene, helping others and, and secretly think to themselves, you know, they couldn't have done it without me. But unfortunately they're still waiting to get a lot of the appreciation that they would like to get back because you see if you're a helper, well, I should back up just a step.

Linda Frazee (00:36:09):

We're all in projection, whatever type we, we lead with. We think everybody else is thinking the same thing. And they're not at all. That's the beauties of all of these typing systems. And, and particularly of the Enneagram, it's such a, a revelation to get that. Gee, you know, if you're a two, you think everybody's thinking, why, why don't you help people? But you're wondering why isn't there, why aren't they helping? What's their problem? Well, it's because they're not thinking of it the way they are. So the two is out there helping everybody, but sometimes resentful because they expect that I helped you. So of course you'll help me and you didn't. What's wrong? You know, but then a good person wouldn't show that so they don't show it so they can build up some resentment as well as the one. The three is called the achiever and they are, you know, the performer sometimes they're called and they are out there looking a lot, like the one doing things very, very, they get things done.

Linda Frazee (00:37:02):

When people think of the United States, they think that this is a three culture. They think that we're all out there running around, doing, doing, doing, achieving, and being very articulate and on top of everything and how our houses perfectly clean. And our, our offices are clean mine still isn't by the way, but that's another, so anyway so the achiever is out there looking very much like the one and this, this is another aspect of the Enneagram, there's a lookalike types. There are types that look alike if you just see their behavior. But remember the Enneagram's secret power is that it's about motivation. The one is doing what they're doing, because they want to be a good person. The three is doing what they're doing and, and out there achieving at a great level because they want the applause. They want the approval approval is so critical to them and they don't want to fail.

Linda Frazee (00:37:53):

They just can't fail. They just failure feels like death to them. And failure can be something small. Failure could be somebody on a stage speaking to 500 people. And one person is in the back with their arms, crossed with their head, turned the other way, and they can't get their eyes off of that person because they feel like they're failing because one person is not really with them in their, in what they're saying. So a failure to a three to achieve is just, you know, monumental. So they have a tendency to just wear themselves out and, and they also will morph. Three is what that means is they are so good at needing to get this approval that they know how to approach people, to be who they need to be to get the approval. And so if they are talking to me, they might be one person that might be different if they talk to Bill.

Linda Frazee (00:38:43):

And if someone else is watching, watching both of those interactions, they may go, oh, I don't know if I trust that person because they seem sort of deceitful. And but they're not really being deceitful in a vindictive sort of way. They're just trying to do what they can to be who they are. Whereas a one is just who they are every time, no matter what, because that's their high, high sense of integrity and what's right. So there's just a little bit of nuance there. As I, as I go around this circle here to let you know the different types and that motivation. So anytime you have any questions or want to step in, Bill, just, just let me know.

Bill Soroka (00:39:20):


Linda Frazee (00:39:21):

So so now we go to the four. The four I mentioned earlier. The four is all about feelings and the family of origin type is suggested to have been caused by some form of abandonment, not literal, but least figuratively, a sense of, of emotional abandonment.

Linda Frazee (00:39:37):

In my case, my parents were great intellects and in, you know, which was interesting, but they were more in their head and not necessarily in their emotions for a variety of reasons. And so that felt, made me feel kind of separate from them and always wanted more emotional, more touch, more psychological, emotional kinds of needs that were, that I needed that I didn't get met. So I felt abandoned. So, so there's the fours need to have deep feelings, deep relationships, ongoing relationships, meaningful things. It has to be meaningful. And there's also a a possibility of depression, doesn't have to be clinical, but fours write their best poetry. They write deep dark things when they're slightly depressed. And and, and they value that. Now, so that's kind of the overview of them on the other, this side. They can, as I said, they can get depressed, but they can be great friends with somebody.

Linda Frazee (00:40:35):

If somebody else is having a difficult time, a four is the best friend to have around because they are not afraid of your feelings and getting in there and being with you at your darkest times. So that's the four and the five is more of a heady type. And they have a lot of fear about the world. When I talked about the case of the introverted child with the extroverted parents, this would be a five child, very likely, who would prefer to read books. Now they would be on their computer or on their iPad or whatever in their room, probably, and very content to do that, very, very willing to go within themselves. They're called the observer. And oh, by the way, the four is sometimes called the tragic romantic also because there's a lot of, lot of emotion and a lot of drama there can be. Now the five is again, the observer and well, well called as the observer because they stand back and kind of watch.

Linda Frazee (00:41:35):

And they watch so that they can know what's going on, because if they feel like, if I understand it, I feel safe. These are the kinds of people as adults who will research extensively, if they're going to buy a car or house, or they'll put off, that can be paralysis analysis, you know, because they, they just spend, so I'm analyzing and waiting and looking that they can, you know, that time can lapse. So they don't get things done because they're thinking. So when I go into an organization as a consultant, I'm always looking for the fives and I'm very glad when I identify them or they identify themselves, better stated, because they know what's going on in organization. Why? Because they're not talking, they're not trying to sell themselves. They're not trying to make a big splash or get lots of attention. They're just standing back observing.

Linda Frazee (00:42:24):

And boy, do they have some very, very bright and authentic and deep things to say when they're asked. But they're in a room, if you say, how many of you are ever done this and that, or who wants to talk about, they'll never raise their hands, but if you can get 'em on one, on one, they'll tell you all about it. So deep, deep, and rich, and, and and can go into isolation too much because they like to be by themselves so much that they can actually get isolated and too detached. It's interesting with the fives, detachment is their strength, and it's also their weakness if overused, because any strength, overused becomes a weakness. So that's our five. Yeah. The six, the six is the loyal skeptic is one of the names that's often used for them sometimes called a trooper. Boy, these people are reliable and boy, once, once they get a job or they get into something, they're going to do it the right way.

Linda Frazee (00:43:20):

They have authority issues. They don't just trust every authority. You know, they, we say there's two kinds of sixes. One's one vows to authority, the other one slaps authority in the face. And this is a complicated kind of character. As all these types are, but the six, it may be a little more complicated in that they sometimes do that on the same day. So the six sometimes will make rules and, and be very, very good about making sure everybody follows 'em, but may break their own rules. And then when they're, when you asked about, 'em say, well, I made those rules for them. They're not for me. So, so they actually work best when they are the authority or they, if they respect an authority, they are loyal to the core. But boy, if they don't, there's a whole lot of trouble going on.

Linda Frazee (00:44:05):

So the six is run by fear all kinds of fears. And, and usually they don't even know it very often when I do, what's known a typing interview to help you people find their type and just ask a lot of questions and and, and have, again, it's all about you finding your type, not me telling your type or te testing for a type, but it, it brings up questions that make you give you homework then to go home and think about, and often I don't use the word fear often with sixes, I'll say, do you feel a lot of anxiety? And sometimes people will say, you know what I do. And I never realized that before, because it's an ongoing thing. Along with the six is something called doubt. They tend to doubt themselves and they doubt other people, and they doubt the world and, you know, and the, the goodness of the world and the safety of the world, because safety is so important for them.

Linda Frazee (00:45:00):

However, they have more courage than the average bear, a lot of courage. And when push comes to shove, you can count on a six and almost any kind of situation. So they, they are, are safety control people. They're they're the ones who want tol make sure the bridges are safe. They make wonderful doctors and heads of, of organizations, because they are always thinking about the highest and best. And they have a capacity to look at what could go wrong and come up with a plan, what it happens. So that's our six. Now the seven, we have a real live seven with us here. someone who leads with a seven who's Bill. And I call them the otters of the Enneagram because they are just happy. And you know, what otters like to lay on their back and splash and play.

Linda Frazee (00:45:47):

And they're so fun to watch and that's, I'll take, yes, I like that. I'm sure. Bill. And so the sevens are often called oh, the, the the debutantes are, are they are, they're just the enthusiast enthusiast. Yes. Right. Enthusiast and, and Bill has spoken to this so many ideas. I call 'em Tigger the tiger of the Enneagram as well, and bouncing around on their tails, just happy characters. And so very often everybody wants to be a seven when they first see that about them, because who wouldn't want tol be with all these ideas and shiny objects and all these wonderful things that Bill has mentioned already. However, that can all be a distraction because underneath it, the, the seven is still a fear type. And the fear is of getting caught in painful, emotional, unpleasant sorts of situations. And so if you just begin to feel some of those deeper emotions wow there's a shiny object over there. Wow. Okay. I'll go for that. Bill said he never met an idea he didn't like. Well that's a shiny object. And that if, if you started to feel even slightly, I don't know about exactly about this Bill, but let's, let's just get into this slightly, those 26 businesses that you had. I'm sure there were some days when you were starting to get depressed about that right.

Bill Soroka (00:47:09):

All the time.

Linda Frazee (00:47:10):

Right. So what would you do to make that depression go away?

Bill Soroka (00:47:14):

Well, I would either create an event that could distract me or organize a group event or start a new business.

Linda Frazee (00:47:22):

That's right. So , so there you are. So you see the loop, you know, about what you're trying to avoid, which the Enneagram helps you find, what is it you're really trying to avoid and how that ties into behavior that doesn't always serve you. And that's really important when you're starting a new venture. When you're doing a side hustle, when you're doing something that you really need to focus on, you really need to look at those deeper issues about what is it I'm avoiding and what is it that I don't want to feel. And it doesn't, this is true of all types, not just sevens. So that is the underlying difficulty for the seven is learning to be with those unpleasant, deeper, painful emotions, because life is a combination of all of those, not just the fun types.

Bill Soroka (00:48:08):

And I think one of greatest lessons you taught me, Linda, is that you, you never avoid feelings. They, you either feel it when they come up or you're going to feel it later, cause it's going to manifest one way or the other.

Linda Frazee (00:48:19):

Right. It's either you pay now or you pay later and you really and or you can internalize it, which means you take it into your body and then your body expresses it for you. And so it really is not a, is not even an option, but, you know, we want tol think it is. So so here we have the enthusiast as the sevens. And then we go on to the eights are sometimes called the boss. And they are the ones who are the big energy types. They have a lot of energy, they have a lot of anger and of all the types on the Enneagram, they are the one who is the most willing to show up with their anger. Their issues are power and control. They want tol be in power and control. And once again, they're, they're a little bit like the six in a way, another lookalike to the six, because if they respect somebody who's in power and control, they're fine.

Linda Frazee (00:49:10):

They'll, they'll go along with it. But boy, if they don't, they'll take over in a, without a second thought they will step in and, and they'll call somebody out and, you know, huge auditorium, they'll stand up and say, Hey, that's not true. You're not doing that fair or that's not right, because they are not afraid. And so they make great leaders. They can be absolutely some of the best leaders on the planet. If they're healthy, if they're unhealthy, they can really cause a lot of havoc because they can be vengeful. If they're angry, if somebody's wrong, them they'll go after them. And so you see both sides there of extremes. This would be one of the types that I mentioned earlier on about what, how would it be if you were someone who in your early life had a lot of anger and you learned you got in trouble for it, you eventually learned, you know, to mediate that and do that.

Linda Frazee (00:50:01):

That might be an eight. But some eight, don't some a just rise to the top because they, you know, they push themselves. There's a theory that there, of all the types on the Enneagram, there are a few than any other type, but they, they get so much press because they rise to the top. You know, they, they show up now, as I said, there's a strength and a weakness to both. So if overused, if that anger's overused, that becomes a weakness. But the strengths of the eight is that they are really, really strong in in knowing what other people need and leading them to the higher and best if they can be a healthy person. So that's the eight. And then the last one, but by no means, least is the nine. The nine is often called a mediator, the harmonizer.

Linda Frazee (00:50:46):

And, and they are the ones who sitting right between the one and the, the eight from a num numerological standpoint, they go around in a circle, one on either side and they can see both sides of every situation. And they great for a judge on some level. I had lots of nine judge just when I worked with the court system. However if you see both sides of it, how do you make a decision mm-hmm ? So you know, they, they, that's why they're called mediators. And so some of their challenge is, and, and peacemakers, the challenge is that they are so afraid of conflict. That harmony is their middle name. They want harmony, no matter what. And that sometimes is hard to achieve. So they gr they in the right job and the right, doing the right thing and they make good service personnel, but they have a hard time acting on their own behalf.

Linda Frazee (00:51:39):

This is very much like the two, I, I mentioned that the two was the helper who would forget about themselves in, in, and helping others. Well, the nine isn't really looking around to help people. They're just trying to avoid themselves avoiding taking action. They have a big, big issue with procrastination. Once again, we all have procrastination, but the nine would be someone throughout their life would've procrastinated much. Like when earlier, when I asked Bill about how did the shiny object syndrome show up for him when he was as a kid? Well if I were to ask somebody who thought they were a nine, I'd say, well, how were you about procrastinating with your homework when you're a kid or your chores? You know, and again, now here's an example. Let's say, I asked that question.

Linda Frazee (00:52:22):

Somebody said, well, I couldn't do it cause I had very strict parents and I'd get in big trouble and then I there'd be conflict. Okay. So that could be a nine who had to pony up and follow orders or get in trouble and they didn't want conflict, but given their own to their own devices, a nine will procrastinate until the very last minute and forget some major things, like maybe forget even getting a job or having children or getting married. So not all nines do that of course, but that's just a illustration of how that could be. So yeah. Well I'm wondering Bill, if you're hearing some noise in the back, I've got a lawn person outside my, my window. Can you hear that?

Bill Soroka (00:52:59):

Yeah. It never fails. I, I sent the weedeater over to your house. We got a podcast recording. Now we need a weedeater happens all the time. Mine should be here any moment. Yeah. Right. But that's OK. We're about to wrap up here anyway. Cause that was a really great, I mean super, super superficial introduction to the Nu the numbers that are on the Enneagram and for those other listening, if you're looking for something a little more in depth, Linda has a great description of each of these numbers on her website at And of course we've got these resources for you in the VIP room of the Side Hustle Lounge website as well. So if you go to room, you can register for that it's 100% free and we'll have all that information in there for you now real quick before we actually go Linda. Cause I know there's a lot of people that are thinking, okay, this is, this is cool. This sounds really interesting, but how can creatives and solopreneurs use the wisdom of the Enneagram to thrive in their life in business? And I'd like us both to answer this. So why don't you go first?

Linda Frazee (00:54:12):

Well, I think it gets to what I mentioned earlier about the missing pieces of your own personal puzzle. It's really important when you're going to when you're creative going out to, in the world to be a creative or an entrepreneur to make sure you're not, you know not in your own way and that you feel as good about yourself as possible as little shame as possible and that you're able to bat away some of those criticisms you're going to get from your, your family or your friends who say you think you can make money with that? Or, you know, you know, all those, those wonderful criticisms that people lob your way and your capacity to be able to really be connected to yourself and not be pulled off by other people's opinions, your ability to know what you want truly and stay the course and know your own your own deficits as far as like just triggers and, and blind spots.

Linda Frazee (00:55:06):

The, the, one of the things that's really important is the blind spots. You know, and it isn't like once you know them that they just go away. Once you shine the light that the blind spots disappear. I wish it's really important to know. Okay. There I go again for me, it's like, okay, so you don't feel like doing that. Well, guess what, if you don't do that, there's going to be this consequence. Okay. I'll go do it. You know, I have lots of techniques I can help for each one of these types about once you find your blind spots, what do you do about it? Because finding it doesn't do any good if you don't take action with it. So I think that you want to go be as full orbed as possible. When you start any new adventure, if you're out there as a entrepreneur, you really do have to be, it's just your obligation to yourself. Otherwise you, you trip over your own feet,

Bill Soroka (00:55:58):

So true and get in our own way. And that, so then the rest of the series, if you're just listening to this introduction, you'll notice that there's a lot more episodes with Linda, where we dive in deep on each particular number. And we're going to talk exactly about those blind spots and pitfalls of each number as it pertains to entrepreneurialism and those creative endeavors, because really guys, your, your business is your masterpiece. It's a creative endeavor as well. So all of this ties right in together and we're going to talk and we're going to break that down number by number in the following episodes. Now for me, I want to answer this question too. And I Linda, what you, you said about this, because for me, how can creatives or solopreneurs use the Enneagram and its wisdom to thrive is that self-awareness to show you how you are showing up to life everything that we do what we're.

Bill Soroka (00:57:03):

So even though we're a solopreneur, we are not silo entrepreneurs. So this is a relationship based business. You are always going to have a relationship with customers, with vendors, with advertisers, whatever it is, the public, the audience, whatever it is, you're going to have a relationship. And it's so important that we know how we show up to those relationships. And if you've ever said to yourself, gosh, how can people always do this to me? Or why do I, why do they always say this to me? Or why don't I have friendships that have lasted beyond six months or two years or whatever it is, there's a good chance that there's something about the way you're showing up that is affecting that. There is, there's no getting around it. One of the biggest lessons I learned in my journey through those 26 business failures, it was so hard to look at, but I was the common denominator and this Enneagram helped me figure out how I was showing up too.

Bill Soroka (00:58:05):

And we'll talk a little about, a little more about that in depth. I think probably when we get to the, the number seven section, but as Linda said, as you, as you take steps towards a dream, you're going to meet resistance. And that resistance oftentimes how we interpret it, depending on our those five factors that Linda talked about ultimately determines our success. Cause we're going to have to push through things. We're going to be confronted with situations we've never encountered before. And knowing that in advance can help you prepare and get the tools you need to push through. So I'm real excited for these future your conversations. Linda, is there anything that you'd like to say to just kind wrap everything up before we dive deeper in the next episodes, which each number, with each number individually?

Linda Frazee (00:58:56):

Yeah. For some reason, this story is coming up for me and, and I always go intuitively with this. But years ago I wrote an imagery for a a program that I was doing and I had a co-leader and it turned out that she wanted to do that part. So she read it and I, I received my own imagery that I'd written imagery is a process of closing your eyes and going down inside and you know, coming up with new answers. So anyway, in, in this imagery I saw I, there was some sort of question they're like, well, what do you need to do is your next step in your life? And I said, I have to get my ducks in a row. And so in this imagery, I saw these ducks walking down the street, and one of the ducks got off the path and went up the hill and ran off in a different direction.

Linda Frazee (00:59:41):

And this internal voice inside of me said, follow the wandering duck. And so I followed the wandering duck and the duck led me to a beautiful place with water and creative ideas and things that I had never even thought of in my business. And so it all about that is trust. You know, in this imagery, I could have said, no, I'm not going to follow the wandering duck. Ducks are supposed to be in the row. Well, that's again, that's like the traditional method. So in conclusion, I would say that what the Enneagram can help you with is find your way of getting out of your own way. So you can deeply trust yourself and follow your own wandering duck.

Bill Soroka (01:00:21):

I love it. Thank you so much, Linda. I am. So looking forward to the rest of these conversations. Thanks for being here today.

Linda Frazee (01:00:28):

It was a pleasure. Thank you, Bill. Take care Everybody.

Bill Soroka (01:00:31):

Yep. And remember everyone, if you want to explore your own Enneagram number, visit Linda or the VIP room at Thank you so much for listening to the Side Hustle Lounge podcast.

Bill Soroka (01:00:45):

You know, if you follow me on Instagram and social media, you already know that my pets play a huge role in my life. And I include them as part of the family. They are part of my why Dexter and violet brings so much joy and love into my life. They always want to make sure that they are well tended to and healthy. That's where my TOTO pet insurance policy comes in. TOTO was voted best pet insurance company in 2021 by Forbes advisor. And it's known as the pet insurance company with a heart and without the gotchas, there's no network of obscure vets that I'm forced to choose from.

Bill Soroka (01:01:26):

So I get to pick my pet's doctor. And then depending on the policy I select, I can be reimbursed up to 90% of the vet bill and they make it easy to use. You visit any vet. You submit a claim, you get cash back, pet insurance finally done, right? If you'd like to support the show, get coverage for your own fur babies, and maybe even give yourself some peace of mind at the same time. Get an instant quote today on Totos easy to use website at

--- End of Transcription ---




This episode was produced and marketed by the Get Known Service

Episode music provided by Lofi Panda Music


50% Complete

Two Step

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua.