Leadership Upgrade: 10 Keys to Become the Leader YOUR World is Waiting For

What if YOU could be the leader you're craving and wishing for your community, household, company...or the world? Author Michael Rowell shares ten fundamental principles of leadership he's learned after 25 years in the business.

Some of this weeks episode highlights are:

8:21 We are a work in progress. We're are always a work in progress. The power to ‘become’ is really one of the most powerful dynamics we can capture as people. We may not be good at something today, we may not have the capacity to function in a particular area today. But if we can capture the power to ‘become’, then we can grow into that tomorrow.

17:44 Some of the greatest leaders that I've seen in my community are the ones who serve others the best. And they are kind leaders, because they put themselves last and they serve everyone.

38:55 We can lead organizations and battleships and communities and countries, but ultimately, all we are ever leading is people. We've got to make prioritizing relationships a real key. If we're not relating to people our, our ability to influence and connect and engage and lead them drops dramatically.

--- Full Raw Transcription Below ---

Michael Rowell (00:00:00):

You can write something and stick it on the shelf or stick it on the mirror. But if there's no power in that for you, then it's, it's not really, it's not a magic bullet. But it's when we're daily looking at that, declaring it, believing it dedicating time to reaching it. We're up-skilling ourself in the things we need to do to get there. We're making that a priority and a living thing in our life. That's when reading becomes powerful.

Introduction (00:00:34):

Welcome to the SideHustle Lounge. If you're looking for flexible ways to earn income, grow your mindset, and live the lifestyle you've always dreamed of, you are in the right place. So lower the lights. Grab your favorite beverage and join your host. Founder of NotaryCoach.com and Amazon bestselling author of Sign and Thrive: How To Make Six Figures As A Mobile Notary And Loan Signing Agent, Bill Soroka.

Bill Soroka (00:01:07):

Cheers and welcome to my next guest today, Michael Rowel. He's the Owner and Chief Photocopier, Chief Dishwasher, of Empowered Nation Consulting. He's also the author of "Leadership Upgrade: 10 Keys to Become the Leader Your World Is Waiting For - Home, Community, Work". Michael, thank you so much for being here today,

Michael Rowell (00:01:29):

Bill, thank you so much for having me. I wish I'd found something like you guys a bit 30 years ago when I was working deep in the bureaucracy of government and I had my side hustle, multilevel marketing business going, and people would ask me, what did you do last night? And I'd say I'd sent out 30 emails to prospects and they looked at me like I was some sort of alien or something like stay in the nine to five, stay in your lane. Don't go out looking for anything else. So I feel like I've found my people once I've found this show and your community. So thanks so much for having me on it's a real privilege.

Bill Soroka (00:02:07):

Well, that's so great to hear. I love that … the seed had was planted so long ago and you know exactly what this is all about and it sounds like you've held onto your dream. I'm sure it changed faces many times like it does for so many of us, but you you held onto that and now you've started your own company - consulting company and you've become an author. So I'd like to start right there at the book, Michael, because that's what brought us together is this book Leadership Upgrade. And I had the privilege of being one of your early readers, beta readers or launching readers. And I knew this book was going to be special. And I'm just going to say it. I think this book should be required reading for every eighth grader in the world because this, this what you teach - these 10 key lessons is not just about business. It's just about being a better human. And I love that you chose the word keys, 10 keys, because it truly does unlock opportunities. This is what makes the world tick. It's what makes people feel special in it? What makes big visions come to life in the world? So thank you for writing this. This is really powerful.

Michael Rowell (00:03:24):

I'll look, thank you so much for that summary. That's a real honor to have you say that about the book and the material. It's really been kind of a 30 year project for me, I guess. And the fact that, you know, settled on those ten keys, I guess they came about because through my, my journey of life and the leadership roles I had and family, and watching other leaders and watching people at work and in the community and that sort of thing probably about 30 years ago, I just started taking notes about things that I observed and things that really had power and things that seemed really like foundational concepts. So these are the 10 things that for me I keep coming back to, and I know for me in my own life that if I'm not really functioning well in one of these 10 keys, it can really, I notice the impact in my own life, my own progress.

Michael Rowell (00:04:33):

And if I'm doing them well, I also noticed that sort of even just at home with family or in my workplace or in whatever else I'm doing. So these, these are kind of took a long time to settle on and there was a lot thrown out on the table to start with. And it took a while to sort them into these kinds of 10 issues. But I guess ultimately these are what I see as like a real framework that we can build firstly, a life on. And then that flows into our leadership and that sort of thing, because, you know, what we are in private is, is what we are in public. So if I'm if I'm a really kind of selfish person at home, then I'll be a selfish leader wherever I am. So that's kind of the concept of it.

Bill Soroka (00:05:24):

Well, I, I love that you're, you're talking about that first. I don't know how you boiled them down to these 10, but I think you did a really good job because there are, there's lots of characteristics and qualities and showing leadership, but I think you, you nailed it. You got the foundational piece with these 10 but what you just alluded to as well was authenticity and being the real deal, being who you are behind the scenes, as well as when you're on stage. And I think that's a critical part of leadership that is oftentimes missing, no matter whether it's a, a solo preneur on the road, or trying to build a business in one way, but lacking that integrity with themselves behind the scenes and government leadership and corporate leadership people trying to pull their energies, trying to be two different faces. And it's, it makes life more difficult for that person. But I think as human beings, don't you think we pick up on that?

Michael Rowell (00:06:20):

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Look, I think that's a great point. And you know, at the end of the day, we only really have one. There's only one of us. We can't split ourselves in the world of work and our home office. And we only have one heart and one soul and wherever we are, that's the one we've got with us. So, you know, I've found from my own life, sometimes I can perform in (inaudible) commerce really well at work and I can be patient and I can be a great listener and a great communicator and all these wonderful things at work, but get home and just totally blow it. And, and you sort of realize, wow, you know, I'm still, I'm still growing in those areas. And, and as you say, it, it might be something that I'm aspiring to be, but sometimes it's still like an immaturity in my own life about growing into those things. So I think that's a great point that you might put you know, we, we tend to take ourselves wherever we're at into whatever environment we go into.

Bill Soroka (00:07:27):

Yeah. There's no escape from us. Right. Well, and I think that, well, I think it's important that we give ourselves grace, you just said it we're, we're constantly learning and growing and we're becoming this, isn't the destination. Right. I don't think you get to a certain point. And you're like, ah, I made it. I no longer have to grow. I never have to figure anything else out. It's just this constant process. Give yourself some grace along the way.

Michael Rowell (00:07:52):

Well, I think you, you made this point in your podcasts with Phill Shannon, I think was his name.

Bill Soroka (00:07:59):

Oh yeah.

Michael Rowell (00:08:00):

And I think, I think the way you said that was better than I tried to explain it in the book was about where in this process of becoming, you know, and no one came, no one comes ready made, and, and you know, the subtitle of the book is 10 Keys To Become The Leader Your World Is Waiting For, because exactly, as you say, you know, we are a work in progress. We're always a work in progress. So the power to become is really one of the most powerful dynamics we can capture as people, because we may not be good at something today, but we may not have the capacity to function in a particular area today. But if we can capture the power to become, then we can grow into that tomorrow.

Michael Rowell (00:08:48):

And it might take 30 years. I know for me 30 years ago, I be a cringing mess on the floor, in the fetal position at the thought of doing this podcast. You know, so I'm not a natural public speaker but that's something that I've grown into. And it's something that I'm continuing to grow into. And I love the fact that on that last podcast, he talked about the fact that you had a business and, you know, it was going well. And then he had some hard times and he sort of went in a different direction, but he came back to it and he rebuilt it. And I thought, well, that's, that's a guy who's captured the dynamic of being able to become because I know people that have money or success or certain things, but then for whatever reason have lost it and I can see they don't have the internal capacity to recreate that. So they sort of they don't have those dynamics. I think that is a really important dynamic that you spoke about.

Bill Soroka (00:09:57):

That brings up a really great question. Do you think that leaders, whether leaders of self or leaders of others are born or created

Michael Rowell (00:10:08):

Without a doubt, leaders are made. Nobody comes already made to the role and everybody, I'm convinced, everybody can become a really powerful leader in their world. And, you know, that might be in their home. That might be as the prime minister of a nation or the president of a nation. But whatever their world is, everybody can grow and become the leader that that world is looking for. So it might be, you know, the coordinator of a community group or something like that. Nobody, nobody arrives ready made. I certainly have not. And it's been a real growth journey for me to move into better levels of leadership, I guess you could say, and I'm still so much on that journey, you know, like I'm, I'm barely down the road. So I think with the right input with the right attitude everybody can learn and, and become that leader.

Bill Soroka (00:11:14):

I know you talked about this a little bit in the book, but to me it always goes down to my vision, like what it is that I'm trying to create, or the impact that I'm trying to have on my world. Because like, you, I love that you said that 30 years ago you would have been nervous to come on a podcast like this. I'm the same way. Like I am I could be in my cave as an introvert and never be out. Yeah. I still have to, I have to meditate and pump myself up for these types of exchanges on the podcast, even today. Like I had to do that because I have to, I have to get in the right space. And I got to remember why I'm doing this, what we're talking about, even when I'm totally looking forward to hanging out with you, because I love your book. You still have to have that conversation with myself and remind myself of the vision of that and what I'm trying to create here.

Michael Rowell (00:12:02):

Oh, Absolutely. And I think that's such a powerful key is that concept of building our life out of our vision because it's almost like, you know, there's, there's kind of a natural not to be negative, but there's kind of a natural limitation in the environment around your life. And even a natural decay. You know, you take a bite of an apple, you leave it on the bench, it goes brown because there's just something in the environment that's kind of affecting it negatively. And I think as soon as we set our sights on a vision or a goal there's something in the environment that tends to be working against us reaching that. And a lot of it is inside us, right? It's, it's my own fears and my own anxieties. And it's my own limitations of, gosh, who am I to do this, and my thinking and all this sort of stuff.

Michael Rowell (00:12:53):

And that's kind of a default position. And that's something in the book we talk about is breakthrough thinking. So, so we might think, oh gosh, look at that person. They've got it all together. It's all smooth sailing for them. I'm not like that. So it's never going to be like that for me. But everyone like that old saying most of us is like the rest of us. Everyone's got their own limiting thoughts and challenges. And if we're not actively connecting with that vision that you speak about and really building out of that - by default, the environment kind of closes in around this and the limitation sets in and the negativity sits in and that's like, I just say almost a regular kind of almost daily event. We've got to break through that and get back out into the why, into the vision of what we're working towards.

Bill Soroka (00:13:43):

Yeah. So huge. And speaking of that … dreams, aren't always easy writing a book I know is not always easy. Why did you decide to take that on? Why now?

Michael Rowell (00:13:59):

Yeah, sure. Look, I, I guess over that time that I mentioned at the start about just sort of observations and taking notes and that sort of thing, I started to keep settling on these keys that I thought, wow, this is, this is really powerful stuff. And in the, some of the coaching that I was doing with people and that sort of thing, and, and I really wanted to get that condensed and into one place. So, you know, I had a thousand sticky notes and manila folders and notes on the back of napkins. And I thought I've got to get this into one kind of space because I was really passionate about the fact that these types of truths that you talk about, you know, teaching the eighth graders, wow, what a concept wouldn't that change the world? You know, you don't, you don't learn this stuff at school, like, gosh, did I tell you what my life would be different?

Michael Rowell (00:14:55):

So, you know, I'm, I'm pushing 50 now and, and really sort of capturing these things, but I'm teaching these to my daughter. Who's 11, because I want her to be empowered with this sort of concepts that can really shape a life now and build towards them now. So part of the, part of the reason I did the book was to get the message to as many people as I could, because I can only be in one place at one time. And hopefully with the book, more people can have access to it, and hopefully it might help them in their journey as well.

Bill Soroka (00:15:35):

It's a beautiful vision - that was going to exactly be. My next question is what do you hope this book will do for the world?

Michael Rowell (00:15:43):

Well, I think the world is you know, in a really interesting place. And I think the issue of leadership has never been more critical and it's always been critical because you know leadership changes the world and that classic saying that everything rises and falls on leadership. And, you know, I, I believe that now more so than I did 25 years ago when I first heard that quote. So I think you know, we build well, if we build our own individual life well, that translates into families that translates into communities and workplaces, and that translates into the world. So I think the issue of leadership is a really critical one. And it's, it's an area that I think is really misunderstood because we think leaders. So we think of, you know, presidents and CEOs and that sort of thing, but I'll tell you what, there's no more powerful leader than the parent at home, or, you know, someone in a, in a school or in their own world impacting people in a positive way in their own sphere of influence. These people are just as powerful and just as important to change the world as, as anyone else in that, in any other position,

Bill Soroka (00:17:13):

I love that you you're talking about that because I think there is there's this distance between many people and leaders. So do you think first, do you even have to have followers to lead or is there a different kind of leadership?

Michael Rowell (00:17:30):

Yeah I think, I think the, the concept of leadership can potentially be that kind of traditional I'm a leader because I'm in charge of people, but you know, some of the greatest leaders that I've seen in my community are the ones serve others the best. And they are kind leaders because they put themselves last and they serve everyone. Well, they serve their vision or they serve a cause or they serve other people. Sometimes they serve other people's visions. So sometimes the best followers are the best leaders because they're so sold out for growing someone else's work or someone else's message by default, they become leaders of those areas. And so I think yeah, we do need to be connected to people. I mean, if you're a leader and you're not connected to anyone you're not leading, you just went for a walk because there's no one following you. But we do need to be connected to people, but we don't, I don't think we necessarily need to have followers. I just think we need to be connected through others. And, you know, leadership is about influence anyway, influencing people then, you know, really we're a leader to those people.

Bill Soroka (00:18:52):

Great point. What do you say to someone who is listening and thinking? I have no desire being a leader. I'm not a leader.

Michael Rowell (00:19:01):

You're a, well-qualified, you know there's always a little red flag with the people that must be the leader and they want to be in charge and they want to be in control because potentially that's a problem. Because there can only be one leader in kind of any situation. So, you know, oftentimes what we really need is great followers and we need people who can capture a vision. Like I could say on one hand, I'm a leader, but I'm also a follower. And I think learning to be a great follower is an absolute prerequisite to being a great leader because it's there that we learn to serve other people or serve someone's vision or put others first. And we sort of learned to play on an agenda to one side and they weren't preferences. Like I I've got opinions. Like you asked me about something.

Michael Rowell (00:19:57):

I could give you an opinion, but at the end of the day if someone's in charge and they say, this is what we're gonna do, then I've got to put that opinion to one side and go right out I'm on board a hundred percent. Let's do it. So, you know, it's a great training exercise to become a leader. And if you don't want to be a leader, fantastic, the world just got a lot easier because on a team or in a group or an organization if you're not constantly wanting to challenge the leader or take the leader in another direction or whatever, then you're your first class team material. We need more people like you.

Bill Soroka (00:20:39):

I'm sure that's going to be very comforting to many people now, something that, something that you just mentioned though you know people who are striving for leader for maybe maybe different reasons, unhealthy reasons, maybe the egos gets in the way. I would imagine that through the years, 25, 30 years of experiencing leadership and coaching, that you've seen some examples of poor leadership as well too. Did you does that inspire you to help write a book like this?

Michael Rowell (00:21:13):

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Now Bill you've seen straight through my disguise. No, I look at it is a really really spot on point because that is actually a real key motivation. And what I wanted to do was provide people a plumb line and a foundation stone and and a level and a guide, whatever you want to call it, like a point of truth in time that they can refer to and get some sort of feedback for themselves against this plumb line. So, you know, builders use a plumb line, they set their string and then they drop a line down to the ground from a height, with a weight on the end. And I know that's the plumb line - that's straight. So when we deviate off that, we know we're moving off the wrong track. There really what a title of the book is all about is providing a plumb line for people to gauge and assess their own leadership.

Michael Rowell (00:22:19):

Because as you say I've seen some really bad leadership and I've seen the devastating impact that it has on people. And that really bothers me when people are in positions of authority when people are in positions of power and look, as soon as we're a leader of anything, we are by default in a position of authority over people. And that is potentially I really challenging place to be because people assign a certain level of weight to an authority figures, opinions, or views, or behaviors towards them. So, you know, I think if we ever were in that position, we need to be so super careful that, and so super aware of the impact that we're having on the people around us and that we're connected to. And when we're not, I've seen the impact and experience the impact myself of bad leadership.

Michael Rowell (00:23:20):

And I know that the weight that can carry, you know, in a life and you don't just leave that at work. You don't just leave that on the basketball court when you're finished playing. And the coach has said something to you you take that home and it sits with you, like words have power actions and behaviors towards us have power. So when we're in a position of authority and we, we misuse that, or we, we damage people from that position it's, it's really not good. So the, a lot of the book is about the red flag. Be really careful about how you're dealing with the people connected to you when you're in that position.

Bill Soroka (00:24:04):

I think that's such powerful advice too. And I think when you're elevated to a position of leadership or influence, as you mentioned, sometimes the most off the cuff words have tremendous meaning to people and recognizing the impact or the ripple effect of your words and actions is probably one of the greatest awarenesses that you have for that. It's an awesome responsibility for leaders of all capacities, churches, schools, governments, organizations, everything it's huge.

Michael Rowell (00:24:40):

Oh, absolutely. And you could probably remember, you know, a time when someone that you considered an authority figure or important person in your life said something to you and crushed you, you know? And they might not have even been aware they said it.

Bill Soroka (00:24:56):

Yeah, there is. So I have so many examples of this and it's … a lot of it too. This was, what's fascinating about human beings too, is we hold on to stuff that happened to us as kids. We tend to carry that forward. And that little, that little kid inside is making decisions as an adult now. I remember specifically teachers who said things that were just probably normal to them, but they were devastating to a child and literally through personal development and working through that stuff, I've been able to release that, but I didn't even realize what was making those decisions. That brings me to another question though, that just came to me is as maybe for lack of a better word influence-ees, or followers of a leader, do you have… Is there a way to check ourselves from elevating someone too high on a pedestal?

Michael Rowell (00:25:54):

Yeah, absolutely great, great point. You know, and when we're, when we're committed to following someone, we put ourselves in a potentially vulnerable spot because, you know, we, I guess by default, do elevate them to a certain degree. And if they do or say something to us that we perceive as being judgemental or negative or even incorrect about us, that can, that can really hurt. So I think that's a really great question because you know what - they're going to do it. There's no doubt about it. Not because they want to, but they're human. They're not perfect. Life is not perfect life and will deal out its share of blows to us. And I think that's a great opportunity for us to then sort of reflect on, you know, what we're drawing our identity from. Because if, if all our identity comes from one single person we're probably putting ourselves in a dangerous spot.

Michael Rowell (00:26:56):

So I think that's the first key is to just, just check that, you know, this person is not becoming almost like a deity kind of figure to us and that there is life and perspective outside of them. I think it also opens up the opportunity for us to really grow because I know myself, people that I've followed, they offend me, they hurt me. They misjudge me, they do all these horrible things to me, not because they've intentionally done it, but just because that's life, you know, that's relationships that's going to happen. That's the chance for me to grow through that so I can get offended. I can cut the relationship. I can change the way I'm relating to them, all that sort of stuff. And I think this is where, you know, particularly relationships of leaders and followers, that's where they really get tested is you know, and that's for anyone, families or anything like that when there's offense and we can work through that offense and we can forgive, even if they don't know we're forgiving them, cause they don't know they've done anything wrong.

Michael Rowell (00:28:06):

That's where the relationships go to a new level. Because I'm sure that vice versa, I would offend them and do stuff that drives them crazy. But you know, we, you mentioned that word before about grace, where there's a grace towards each other, and we've talked about this in the book about you know, that's, that's a real key to making a relationship work is being able to say, you know, you're not perfect, this hurt, let's keep moving forward, and then I don't have an expectation that you're going to be perfect. So let's just keep moving together.

Bill Soroka (00:28:45):

Yeah. And so sometimes just a powerful conversation to clean it up.

Michael Rowell (00:28:51):

Absolutely.

Bill Soroka (00:28:51):

And move forward that's the trick. You know, your book has done such a great job. And I, I just want to mention too for our listeners, if you're interested in reading the book, this is a, it's not a fluff piece. And that's what I really loved about it, Michael, because I like to get into the nitty gritty and you have this 10 Keys, but it's not just, oh, integrity is important to leadership. Moving on to number two, you know, it wasn't like that you got in depth with it gave specific examples. And then I want to talk about your last chapter here in a second, but I think it's going to be important after this conversation already that we mentioned at least what these 10 Keys are. And I've been thinking about how we could possibly do that without just going off of a list. So I wondered if I could bring up what the key is. And if you could just maybe give us a little insight into why it's important. Quickly. I don't want you to, I don't want you to have to go as in-depth as your book does, but I think, I think those who are listening, if they're on the road right now, the, these are real practical things that they can integrate into their life right now. So does that work for you?

Michael Rowell (00:30:06):

Let's give it a go. Let's roll the dice.

Bill Soroka (00:30:10):

So let's start with your first key. It's integrity. What do you have to say about integrity?

Michael Rowell (00:30:16):

Well, look, I think people, whether they're in Australia or whether they're in they're in America, I have a building BS detector. So if we don't do what we say, then we've automatically reduced our capacity to lead them. And they will probably never tell you, they don't believe you, but they'll tell you by how well they respond to you and how much they let you influence them. If we're not doing what we say we're going to do in the little things we will never get any trust. The buy-in from people in the big things.

Bill Soroka (00:30:54):

It's so true. And I love that. You mentioned that they'll probably never mention it to you. I think sometimes it may not even be a conscious decision on their part. There's just a feeling or a disconnect that says this person's not doing …. They pick up the inconsistency and he said this, but he's doing this and they just move on to something. Yeah,

Michael Rowell (00:31:15):

Consistency. Yeah. That's a good, good one

Bill Soroka (00:31:19):

Second one conviction of purpose.

Michael Rowell (00:31:22):

Well, you, you didn't mention this at the outset, which is a great point. It's the why, why are we doing this? If we're doing something and where it's causing us pain and we don't know why we're going to stop but we've got to have why - like your doing meditation building yourself up … to like, that's not something you do if you don't have a why, you know what I mean? Like you have got your why sorted because anyone else is doing that is going I'm just not going to do it cause it's too hard. Like, I don't want to go there. It's easier to sit on the couch and watch the TV and get up at 6:00 AM and psych myself up to talk to some stranger about a booklet, right? Like that's how it worked. Right. But you know what your why is? So that's exactly the example of how you're going to push through those limitations. And that's the inspiration to pull you through those barriers, you know, inspiration, that word comes from in spirit. So it's pulling us on the inside forward. And, and that's, if we don't have that we're going to stop when it gets hard.

Bill Soroka (00:32:40):

Tell me about your book in that regard. I think a lot of people think a book is too hard and not worth it. How did you get through that? Was it your conviction of purpose?

Michael Rowell (00:32:50):

I think, yeah. Look, because I found the book really, really hard, and it took me 12 years to write it. By the time I started collecting the .. my notes and stuff. And like, I went through a number of edits and that sort of thing. And I just kept thinking at the end of the day, this is going to be a powerful catalyst to help people and to help them on their journey. And I know the stuff in it is real and powerful. So for me, it was all about, I've got to get to the finish line. Like I've got to get this done because I'm not, it's like an itch you can't scratch it. It's like something burning on the inside of you. Your bare in your undies that you've got to get this thing down, or it's just not going to be a happy life. So that was the, that was the vision for me.

Bill Soroka (00:33:46):

I love it. And while that brought us right to number three, two is the vision. So you conviction the purpose and then your vision and what you're trying to create. Yeah. Anything else you want to add to vision?

Michael Rowell (00:33:56):

Yeah. And look, we just, we just sort of mentioned that about, you know, it's, it's something that we can connect to that's in the future and it's pulling us forward. Motivation is about kind of pushing, but inspiration is about pulling. So when we can anchor ourselves to the vision in the future all those hurdles and roadblocks and obstacles in the way it's pulling us through those. So it's it's a really powerful dynamic we have operating in our life.

Bill Soroka (00:34:26):

What advice do you have to people who think having a vision statement or an idea of where they're going is a little too woowoo` and not worth the time of creating? What, what advice do you have for them on that?

Michael Rowell (00:34:38):

Look, I think the vision statement and that sort of thing is great. It's ultimately only as powerful as you make it. So you can write something and stick it on the shelf or stick it on the mirror. But if there's no power in that for you, then it's, it's not really, it's not a magic bullet, but it's when we're daily looking at that, declaring it, believing it dedicating time to reaching it. We're up-skilling ourselves in the things we need to do to get there, where we're making that a priority and a living thing in our life. That's when vision becomes powerful. If it's just someday I'll do this. And we're sort of disconnected from it, it's kind of a nice idea. It's not really a vision.

Bill Soroka (00:35:28):

I, I, I love what you said there. The when it becomes a living part of your life know integrated into your life, that's where the real power comes. For me, also, I have a, I have a vision statement that I read or write sometimes I'll just write it out every day. It's using words and painting a picture that charges me up. I mean, I literally get so excited writing it that I have to, my brain goes crazy and I have to bring myself down to focus it. And I think that has really served me that, that powerful of a statement. It's hard to teach that because most people go straight to money. Oh, I'm going to have a million dollars in the bank, or I want to make a hundred thousand dollars a year, but it doesn't go deep enough. You know, you gotta dig a little deeper into what's really motivating and what's charging you up for that.

Michael Rowell (00:36:19):

How long would you spend sort of doing that exercise?

Bill Soroka (00:36:25):

And so it depends on where I'm at and what I'm working on, but it's, it's a good 40 to 45 minutes because I leave time out for what I call staring at the wall, because I do, if I'm writing it, I'm visualizing how that's going to. I visualizing my next steps. What's my day going to look like today to make that happen. I kept away from pipe dreams. I keep it really like within probably 12 to 18 months, this vision, and I have a higher vision statement of what my overall life is, and they all kind of click in together. And so you mentioned that taking action every day on your vision. That to me is the key as well. It can't be a pipe dream, right? You've gotta be moving towards it. It has to be closer to real every single day. And that's why one of my favorite things I say is don't let the sunset without taking a step towards your dream, because that gives you a confidence that that is indescribable. Knowing that the work I did today is moving me closer to a higher vision or a dream life

Michael Rowell (00:37:32):

That is so good. Like one of the, one of the biggest things that I think I've found with vision is that I can become disconnected from it. And I get bogged down in the daily grind and paying the bills and doing this job and working here and fixing that and doing this and dropping the kids off dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, and all of a sudden the vision is like, you know, it was like, what is that? I can hardly remember what it is, but that process that you're talking about, wow, that is a great way to keep that alive and fresh and connection with it.

Bill Soroka (00:38:04):

Yeah. I love that. It's a little more intense than a lot of the times you might have time for, but I've also found that using technology to remind me of the vision helps too. Setting a reminder during the day, like when I was in my full hustle mode and I was doing like 12 mobile notary assignments, I was creating a course. I was YouTube'ing. I was, I had this book idea, you know, my day was full, but I can always, I can find 10 minutes in between appointments or while I was eating to review my vision statement. And I would put it on my calendar, review your vision statement. So if I can't sit there for 45 minutes and write and feel it, I can at least read it and feel it. And that was really powerful for me.

Bill Soroka (00:38:46):

That's brilliant.

Michael Rowell (00:38:48):

So let's talk about the next key: prioritizing relationships. I love that you included this in there.

Michael Rowell (00:38:55):

Yeah. Look, and that's what we've been talking about before is you know, we, we can lead organizations and battleships and communities and countries, but ultimately all we are ever leading is people. So we've got to, we've got to make prioritizing relationships a real key because, you know, if we're not relating to people our, our ability to influence and connect and engage and lead them drops dramatically. So when they can't hear our heart, when we can't hear their concerns, thoughts, ideas, energy, there's no transfer, there's no connection. That's like, you know, the connection with our vision. It, there's no actual dynamic of connecting with each other. And they're kind of like strangers they're robots. And, you know, I've seen the corporate world people in positions of authority, just, just some do it really well. Some do it really badly where their, their employees are kind of like appliances and you send them instructions and they do a job and they're finished and there's just no connection there.

Michael Rowell (00:40:10):

And so those people respond accordingly and they do the bare minimum. They tick the box and then that's all they're prepared to do because there's no engagement with a vision that they're not you know, passionate about anything because they know they never get any input about that stuff from, from the people around them. So we've got to connect and engage with people. And I think the other thing just on that is this balance between performance and relationships. Like, we all want to get results and we all want to get outcomes. But if we burn the people in the process of doing that I don't see that as a successful outcome. So maintaining the relationship, working through the offense long-term staying and sticking, supporting that person on the way to outcomes. That's, that's a great result.

Bill Soroka (00:41:07):

I totally agree with you. And I think it's it's a different result and sometimes there's a short-term sacrifice because relationships do take a little bit of time. You got to fumble around a little bit figure each other out.

Michael Rowell (00:41:21):

More people, more problems. We're strange creatures, people!

Bill Soroka (00:41:28):

We are bizarre, bizarre creatures, but totally worth it too. You, the… The investment that you make in the relationship it pays off in the end and in ways that you, I don't think you, you plan on, or you can measure in the same way as on a profit and loss statement.

Michael Rowell (00:41:48):

Yeah, absolutely.

Bill Soroka (00:41:50):

So let's talk about persistence. I did not realize that it took you 12 years to write your book. That's persistence. What else do you have on persistence?

Michael Rowell (00:42:03):

Yeah, look, this is an interesting one. I think this is where it's really important that we measure, you know, we can measure the external outcome by got X amount of dollars in the bank I've finished and published the book. And that's good, but I think the other thing that really helps persistence you know, persistence, sometimes it's just about showing up, right? Like we, we make mistakes, we cop a beating. Things don't go our way. We get hammered in life - and just showing up and putting the shoulder back to the wheel. And that's, that's a great characteristic to develop in your life.

Bill Soroka (00:42:48):

It's, it's hard to do. I think because especially like for me, I, you know, I had 26 businesses that failed before my notary business. I not sure that persistence was my conscious thoughts. I, there was a, I think there's a little bit of foolishness. There's a lot of, a little bit of ignorance. But like just kept going. And I'm so glad that I did. How do you, how does, … do you have a recommendation for somebody who maybe did try something flopped failed, quit too early? How can they get back on the horse again?

Michael Rowell (00:43:27):

Well, look, one of the things i found when I was writing the book, you know, I had these people in history that I was always a fan of, and I've started to research them to include a story of them in the book. And what amazed me was how many times they failed before they had any sort of success, you know? And it was like just a consistent theme through pretty much everyone that I've included in the book is what a tough journey they had to make it, you know, and we look at them and we see the big name and the kind of success. And we think, well, they just woke up one day and that happened. But, you know, for a lot of them that it was years, decades, decades upon decades of pain and failure and disappointment before they had any measure of making it. So it was just such a kind of revelation to me, and it was really refreshing and it took the pressure off the thing, you know, I've got to do this tomorrow… Because you know what barely anyone makes it in a day. It is a journey of ups and downs and, and it's not, it's not an easy part.

Bill Soroka (00:44:49):

Definitely not. Do you think in today's modern age, do you think social media? Because sometimes we see just the the, the light - you rainbows and unicorns part, do you think that impacts people's willingness to take a risk today in entrepreneurial-ism or leadership?

Michael Rowell (00:45:09):

I think absolutely. That is a big thing, I mean, you talked about Facebook, someone started the programming, the garage at Uni, and now they run the world and it's easy as that. Right. That's what happens to everybody. Right?

Bill Soroka (00:45:26):

A piece of cake!

New Speaker (00:45:26):

So yeah, I just think that even the concept of failure, you know, if we have the wrong mindset towards failure, then it can just stop us dead. And I think today's generation, I think maybe that's one thing. We talked about resilience in the, in the younger generation and that sort of thing, the ability to just to keep going some of, some of my favorite examples of great leadership, are people that I've just been through a really tough time. They've had a lot of family issues and things outside of their control and financial pressure and, and just to see them keep showing up and keep stepping up to the plate and keep learning, I think, well, that that's someone that I can follow because they are in it, you know, it's not like, oh, this is getting a bit tough on that end. I'm looking for the next opportunity. It's like, no, no, they're, they've been beaten and bashed and run over and all this stuff, and they're still there showing up. So that's someone that is like laying a foundation stone on in the ground.

Bill Soroka (00:46:37):

I think that hearing stories like that, I love hearing stories like that, but I think that's why we relate to them so well, we are all going through some shit - one way or the other right. Going through. And when somebody shares that with us, you know, it's relatable and they kept going. I think that's the biggest inspiration. So let's talk about number six leading for legacy. What do you mean by that?

Michael Rowell (00:47:02):

Well, the reality is that everything here is temporary, right? So we, we have a limited lifespan and the question that we really never really consider is what's going to happen when I'm gone. And if I'm doing all this stuff today, what's the, what's the future of that? Does it end with me, or am I building into the next generation? So, you know, legacy, it's a bit different from inheritance. Legacy sort of has more of the intangibles built into it rather than like a dollar figure or a material possession or something like that. So, you know, someone who starts a business, they've put their heart and soul into it, they run it a certain way. They've got certain values, certain blueprints, certain DNA, a certain way of dealing with customers, certain principles. And what happens if there's a new manager come in and run that business tomorrow because we're not there there's all that suddenly changed because that person's got a different set of values?

Michael Rowell (00:48:13):

So they're the sorts of things that I think they have that we know now the end point is not gonna it's, it's temporary. We can start today building for tomorrow. You know? So the chapter talks about finding people that can continue the legacy after we gone. And then there are certain type of individual it's not, it's not a corporate recruitment program of succession because you know, as talented as someone might be, or as someone with as good a history in, in a certain job function doesn't mean they've got our DNA and doesn't mean that they've got the same values or way of operating that we do. So it's really about if we want to continue what we've built in our time here, we need to start preparing for that today and preparing people to take that role on tomorrow.

Bill Soroka (00:49:16):

That I, I love that you included this as one of the 10 keys, because I think this probably gets thought about the least out of all these 10 keys is, you know, how are we going to be remembered when we're gone and who's going to carry that on.

Michael Rowell (00:49:30):

Yeah. And look where we're all busy, flat out, hanging onto the saddle, doing their own stuff. You know, we're all racing to our own finish line. And even the concept of, you know, picking up the baton from someone else who's, you know, maybe a former, a previous generation to us, that's gone ahead of us. Part of this journey of legacy can be picking up their baton and carrying on what they've started. It doesn't always just that with us, we can be you know, we can be a carrier and we can pass it on as well. That's always a, it's like a generational concept.

Bill Soroka (00:50:12):

Love it, which brings us to number seven selfless service.

Michael Rowell (00:50:17):

Yeah. Well, I sort of touched on it before that some of the greatest leaders are the greatest servants. You know, we, we love the image of being the leader and sitting at the top of the pyramid and having people fan us and bring us caviar and grapes and all that sort of stuff, having all control over everything. The wonderful dream I go there sometimes in my mind. But look, the reality is the greatest leaders are the greatest servants. And some of the examples I talk about in the book that people that were successful in business and successful in creating wealth, but just the way that they served their nation and their community, by putting that back into families and society and that sort of thing that's that separates them from people that are good business people, you know, it elevates them to to a new level.

Michael Rowell (00:51:20):

You know, we've talked about relationships before where, you know, it's all about me in my relationship with people, then they're going to be a certain level of relationship because if it's - If it's all about me and I'm selfish in those relationships, then you know, people will respond to me appropriately, but where I can serve someone else in that relationship it's going to take on a different dynamic and it's going to, it's going to elevate it to a different level. So there's nothing glamorous about service. It's about you know, almost setting your own agenda aside to serve the needs of others. And that's, that's kind of hard. I don't do that naturally. Maybe you do Bill, but that's hard. So you, you know, you've got to really develop that quality. I think,

Bill Soroka (00:52:13):

I think so too. Well, number one, I think we are, oh, I promised I would stop saying number one, that's my most common podcast term. I'm going to stop saying that. So for me with selfless service, I, I think the you have to adopt an abundant mindset first. I think that really…

Michael Rowell (00:52:36):

What do you mean

Bill Soroka (00:52:38):

Like a true belief that there is enough for everyone, and they can have their own success and what it means when I, and I, I worked on that for a while. It's been introduced to me. I was grateful to have a a mother that taught that and introduced me to books and teachers that taught abundance. But until it's integrated, I don't think you fully appreciate it. So for me, it had been ingrained for a while. It became a belief. And when I truly believe that there's enough for everybody, it's a lot easier to serve others because I don't have the, there's no fear attached to it. So I think that's served me really well. So that would be a gift, I think, that helps in that process.

Michael Rowell (00:53:26):

Fantastic. And I think that sort of opens up that whole concept of, you know, we live in a very transactional world where we buy and sell. We give and take. Giving leaves in some other dimension outside of that. But it's like when we, when we can give of ourself, whether it's time or energy or in service to others in some way, it opens up a new dimension of being able to receive other things as well. It's outside of that transactional buy and sell kind of framework.

Bill Soroka (00:54:00):

I totally agree. And there is, there's something that happens. There's a shift that happens that makes way for receiving. I can't put my finger on the science of it. Right. I can't go and say, oh yeah, if you give to this, then this is what's happening, this magnets or other stuff, I don't have that down yet. So it sounds a little woowoo, but all I have is my own experience. And whenever I give, and this is, I share this with my audience too. One of the ways that I was able to really grow my business is to send a greeting card or a thank you card, or I'm thinking of you card or something every day. And the people who received those loved it. It changed like they would call. Some of them would be in tears. I just landed at the right time. That felt good. But starting my day, sending that card, giving that card out, that made me - without them even receiving it - It changed my energy for the day. It just made me feel good. So I think there is there's there's something magical. That's not really magic about it, right. Just really powerful stuff.

Michael Rowell (00:55:07):

That's brilliant.

Bill Soroka (00:55:10):

So let's get into number eight, the pioneering spirit and this, I love, I love blazing my own trail. So I love that you included a pioneering spirit here.

Michael Rowell (00:55:19):

Yeah. Well look, every, every environment we're in, whether it's a family or workplace or community, it has a particular culture. It has a certain way of operating. And when we carry a pioneering spirit, what it means is that those things that we don't don't align with our values, it's like, we're not prepared to just tolerate them. It's like, we've got to go somewhere new. We're going to go somewhere that we're not currently at. And it's like, we're the pioneer in the jungle with the machete. And we're hacking the new path, a new destination to get somewhere that no one's ever been before. So it's about breaking through those limitations, even in their own thinking. And they want in life that I've always held us in a certain place. You know, now in life has a certain culture. Now, you know, business has a culture, a family has a culture.

Michael Rowell (00:56:18):

So when we can break out of those things, not in a destructive negative way, but there's, you know, it might be a limiting factor around, you know, maybe someone in your family has never been to university. You'll never go to university when we're pioneer, we go, you know what, I'm going to university and I'm going to get there. And it's something that we, we just can't tolerate the status quo and we're prepared to upset the furniture and rattle the cage and change the way stuff happens. And that's kind of like, you know, we're not, we're not just administrating. We're not just managing, we're not just going through the motions with, we're a pioneer on a path that's, that's new and fresh and alive and hang on to the coattails because we go there together.

Bill Soroka (00:57:10):

I, I love that. It's one of my favorites, one, three at once. And that brings us right into number nine with breakthrough thinking, what do you mean by breakthrough thinking? How is it different from pioneering spirit?

Michael Rowell (00:57:23):

What breakthrough thinking is like, if you imagine our mind is a garden by default, that garden is going to have weeds. We don't plant them. We don't invite them when I buy them, but they're going to show up in again. So in our mind, those weeds are like the negativity, the limiting thoughts, the, the barriers that prevent us from believing that we can do it. So we've got to actively tend to that garden. And we've got a plant positive thoughts, which are the flowers and the fruit trees and the things that there are to harvest for us. And we've got to weed those weeds. We've got to uproot them. We got to deal with them because if we don't, they're going to take over. So in our mind, a mind is a garden. You know, those, that negativity is just by default at work in us.

Michael Rowell (00:58:21):

You know, w we've talked again about your practice of going through your preparation to get ready for these podcasts. It's almost like you're, you're tending to the garden in your mind, right? It's like, you're pulling out those weeds and, and you're planting those positive seeds and you're picking the harvest, then it's like, you're cleaning the place up. And that's exactly what it's like. Break through thinking is all about not just settling for the default thoughts that we have, because just because they're (inaudible), doesn't mean they're out, we've got the right to pull them out and chuck them out and get rid of them and replace them with something else. So one of the exercises in the book say people don't believe that you can think whatever you want to think. But if I were to say, don't think of a pink elephant walking through the jungle, and don't imagine he's got bananas coming out his ears, don't imagine he's got fluffy blue slippers on, well, guess what? You just thought that thought. So, you know, we can think, we can think what we want to think. You can think, oh, I'm really scared about doing podcasts. Or you can think this podcast is going to be great. And it's the reason why I'm doing this X, Y, and Z. Who's going to get me to my why. So we, we have a real opportunity in our thinking to break through the default setting in our mind. And that's kind of what breakthrough thinking is all about.

Bill Soroka (00:59:56):

I absolutely love it. This is probably the most powerful of all the keys, because it's, it's the voice in your head and it's the voice you hear all day every day. And I think we I, I heard a quote. I probably heard that my whole life that I was just ready to hear it, but it was don't believe what you think, right? Something along those lines don't believe everything you think, because we just, we assume that everybody else is thinking the same thing. Number one. So, but there are some things that are going through your head that are just a sum of all of your experiences, your perspective, and the lens that you're, that you grow and over your your eyes and your mind over the years and are, you can change it. You can change your thoughts. You can weed it out. And I love that you said your thought your, your mind is a garden and that's exactly what it is. And it needs tending to, we can't just default powerful, which brings us to our number 10. And I think they're probably pretty closely aligned self-governance

Michael Rowell (01:01:07):

Hey, this is, this is a nasty one. Cause it's all about us and it's kind of uncountable, but basically the premise is that we can't lead. We don't really have the right, or we don't have the ability to lead other people until we can lead ourselves. And the hardest person we'll ever have to lead is us - our self. Because we're unruly, we've got opinions and we've got agendas and we've got ambitions and we've got all this stuff in us. So tempering that in our own life is kind of like a real, I guess that's kind of the benchmark of if we ever mature into a, a real authentic leader, it's being able to put ourselves second and put ourselves behind the bigger vision of the leadership mandate and that's, you know, to serve others and to put the bigger picture first.

Michael Rowell (01:02:04):

So this is a tough one because we've got our own self to deal with and it's, it's a tough competitor, you know, like it's easier not to forgive than to forgive. It's easier to sit on the couch, then get at 6:00 AM and, and prepare for a podcast (inaudible) is a constant kind of force in our life. And we can't pretend that it's not, you know, and I guess I started at the start. I talked about who we are in priorities, how we believe in public and, you know, there's things in our personal life. There's things that are affecting us as an individual that's, that's gonna apply out in the public arena. So it's kind of the challenge, I guess, for all of us as humans and having our own kind of ambition and selfish nature, and that sort of stuff is to connect with some values to override that practice of self-discipline and have mentors around us to give us some feedback to go.

Michael Rowell (01:03:09):

Yeah, I think he didn't do that too. Well. I think you're of itself issue. I think you acted out of anger in that occasion and you're sort of, you know, to give us that check all these things are things we can utilize to keep ourselves in check and keep us held accountable so that when we're in that leadership role, which we all are every day anyway we're sort of with main tuned a bit, we've been moved a little bit closer to the plumb line than if we just were to let us go and unchecked.

Bill Soroka (01:03:45):

Yeah. I think this is probably going to be one of the hardest for a lot of people. And I think why so many resist even the idea of personal development or personal growth, because when you look in the mirror and you see results in your life and who's ultimately responsible for those, this was a really hard lesson for me. As I was - went through those

Bill Soroka (01:04:13):

Really tough, you know, I had a I was running like five or six different little enterprises. Like all of them crumbled all at the same time, broke up in that terrible way in a relationship world that was crashing. And I said, what is the deal? Why did these, like, who can, I was really looking for somebody to blame, right? Like who's responsible for all of these failures. And it came right back to me. I was the common denominator through all of those. I made those choices. Yeah. It's sucks looking at that. But if I hadn't looked at that, I would've just been this constant victim of serial entrepreneurship and shiny object syndrome. I had to stop and look at it. And while it sucked temporarily, it changed my life completely having, stepping into that, into that courage to look at that. So for those that…

Michael Rowell (01:05:09):

Can you tell me about the shiny object syndrome?

Bill Soroka (01:05:13):

I certainly can. Yeah. So for me, I love a good idea. I rarely meet an idea I don't love, I'm a number seven on the Enneagram. I am, I just love the … i'm an enthusiast. So I was like, oh, that's a good idea. That's a great idea. And then I have this passion for business and this entrepreneurial spirit. So everything I do just turns into a business, a hobby, oh, I love doing it. I make good money doing this. I had this collection of businesses that as soon as it gets too hard or something shiny or brighter or cooler comes along, I would just flit it on to the next thing. And I had the results to prove that. I had 26 business failures, no assets, no income relationships that were teetering. You know, I was bullshitting myself, therefore bullshitting everybody else too. I love the story of being an entrepreneur, but I wasn't digging deep enough to be into it. That I call it my sacred weekend because it happened over Thanksgiving weekend when I had the realization, can I change? I mean, you can measure my life before that and after it, and it's two different - two new experience. That was my experience with that.

Michael Rowell (01:06:28):

Amazing! thanks for sharing that!

Bill Soroka (01:06:28):

Yeah. Thanks for asking. I want to now take a moment because I want to talk about affirmations. Because I think when affirmations are used, well, they can be life-changing and I think most people do not use them correctly, so they become almost pipe dream-ish. But in your book, you give very specific affirmation statements to help people get, keep on track with each one of these 10 keys. Can you tell me what your experience is with affirmations? Why you included those?

Michael Rowell (01:07:12):

Yeah. Look and they probably all born out of my own shortcomings to be honest. So there, there is specific and worded the way they are so that I can't find a loophole in them basically. So they, they kind of the areas that I've found, and I know other people have found that we can talk about, we need to have good relationships. We go, yep, sure. Tick the box. But the affirmations, you know, they're not really long, but they're getting to I'm prepared to forgive and that sort of stuff, so that the real keys to making those concepts work embedded in the affirmations. And I think the affirmations are a summary of everything that we've just spoken about here today because they're reinforcing everything that we want to develop in our life. And in our thinking and all the positive, good, healthy, constructive things that we're trying to build in our life so that we can become. They're all the things that we need to connect with every day, as you've outlined through your practice of connecting with your vision, which was just brilliant. And I love the way that you've incorporated that into your life, because I know for me, if I had been more diligent with these staying on track with these affirmations earlier in life I probably would have avoided some of the pain I've experienced than some of the traps I've fallen into in the past.

Bill Soroka (01:08:56):

Sure. I think that's why I'm going back to the eighth graders. I think we could change the world, teaching stuff like this at an earlier age and how to integrate those affirmations into life. For me setting a reminder and actually like owning the affirmation. I couldn't what didn't work for me. I got from some of the other the books on the affirmations. It's like, all right, you stick this sticky note on your mirror in the morning and you recite it 10 times and it changes your life. And that just never worked for me. So I finally started dialing in and adapting affirmations to my life, into my vision and what I was trying to create. So I had to rewrite those, but then scheduling them throughout the day to remind what you're moving towards. And I think that's the real power. And that's what I loved about your affirmations. They're so practical and they lead directly to whatever characteristic or whatever key you're trying to focus on for that particular day or that particular six months or a year, whatever it is, it keeps you right on track for doing that. And you do it over and over and over until it, you almost build a belief in yourself that that's who I am now.

Michael Rowell (01:10:15):

Wow. That's man. That's a powerful point because I think the way you said that is about, you know, you bring it into your life. But for me, it there's nothing in my life that says I'm an international bestselling author. There's nothing in my environment that tells me that. My job that I work in ideal in numbers and I present reports in numbers. I don't, I don't have a hundred books that I've read every day. I'm not a book guy. You know, there's nothing else in the environment to inform me other than what am identifying within my own mind. And in my own beliefs to say, this is who I am, this is where I'm going. And this is, this is my identity. So that's the only thing I've got, because if I don't have that, everything else around me tells me, you're not

Bill Soroka (01:11:10):

What a powerful statement, but that's all you need is what's in your mind. Think about on the inverse or the other side of that. You have people who are surrounded by tokens of success, trophies, wealth, car, fancy cars, but their brain doesn't tell them they're a success or they never feel successful. They never feel content or happiness in their life, even with all those external you know, outside treasures. So that just speaks to the importance of what is inside your brain. Yeah.

Michael Rowell (01:11:44):

And just quickly in the book, we'll talk about some research that looks at smokers and the smokers that go through the quit program and still identify as a smoker at the end of the program, the overwhelming majority, go back to smoking the ones that go through the program and identify as a non-smoker. They go, no, I'm not a smoker anymore. I'm a non-smoker they are the ones that never go back to smoking. It's all about what's real to them and who they are,

Bill Soroka (01:12:18):

Incredible demonstration.

Michael Rowell (01:12:20):

Yeah It's really interesting.

Bill Soroka (01:12:21):

The power of a mind. And then look at you now, you're your book Leadership Upgrade: 10 Keys To Becoming The Leader Your World Is Waiting For is now an Amazon best-selling book and over 15 categories. So congratulations.

Michael Rowell (01:12:35):

Thank you. You very much. Thank you very much. Hey, look, and I think, I think that's the kind of the end point, but it's almost like how can I explain it? The measurement of our success? I think we need to measure ourselves on the journey as well. So someone who wants to be a millionaire, you know, the measure of that success might be reading a book just that, you know, it's like the internal growth and the internal capacity to reach that goal is kind of just as an important measure as getting to the destination. So twenty-five years ago, deciding to take some notes about what I could put in a book, that's kind of just as important as getting to the end point of going, oh, now I've got a book.

Bill Soroka (01:13:27):

I, I might even take it a little further Michael, and say it's more important, like twice as important.

Michael Rowell (01:13:32):

I like it!

Bill Soroka (01:13:36):

I think I mean, again, it goes back to becoming. It's who we become along the way, and the lessons we learned in the people that we meet along the way. I mean, you, you could not have written the book 25 years ago and have the impact that it's going to have now, because you didn't have 25 years of becoming and experiences and seeing the dark side of leadership and in the positive side of the leadership. Right. So I feel like it culminates for this, but I really, I liked that you brought it up too, because when I first published my book I, I'm not sure what I consciously thought, but when I published it, I was blessed to get it to Amazon bestseller status as well. And then afterwards I experienced … what I learned later, like 18 months later was that it was a bit of grief. Yeah. Creative grief is what they called it. Have you experienced anything similar to this and any unusual emotions after your book published?

Michael Rowell (01:14:41):

Yeah. Look, I can really relate to that. I think I was so focused on finishing it that, you know, consumes time every day and you, you sort of make your schedule around it to get the point. And then when you get it finished, there's kind of a gap and a hole there. What do I do now? I've got an extra two hours a day.

Bill Soroka (01:15:03):

I've been working on this for 12 years and then you're done.

Michael Rowell (01:15:06):

I think so. Yeah, definitely. And I think it was almost like, you know, you get to that point. And I remember Margaret Court… Tennis player saying … the Australian terms player - saying when she won Wimbledon and she got to the number one in the world, which had been trying to get there her whole life, she got there and she felt completely empty. There's nothing there, but in her mind she was chasing that so hard as that's going to be when my life is a success. And then she got there and it was like crickets.

Bill Soroka (01:15:47):

Yeah. It's just a weird, strange feeling, but also a really valuable lesson too, in that it's all about the journey I used to hear. I used to have posters that said success is a journey, not a destination. And I'm like, somehow I bought into that and I had posters on my wall that said it, but I didn't fully appreciate it until I think you pour your heart and vulnerability into a project. And I think vulnerability was a key factor there as well. But when you put that, release that out into the world, whether publicly, or even in a personal journal, you know, whatever it is, whatever that is it's, it was about the creation process. Not about the publication process.

Michael Rowell (01:16:35):

Yeah, yeah, for sure. It's a really interesting hearing and I might read a bit of a check for me that you know, maybe I was putting too much value and too much weight on the book as in the book is, becomes some sort of mystical spiritual object. That's going to guide my life, but you know what, it's, it's, it's a book. And again, if we put too much weight on that stuff, it can create an imbalance in us that we're chasing those shiny objects, as I've now learned what they are from you. Thank you.

Bill Soroka (01:17:11):

Absolutely. Well, Michael, I have absolutely enjoyed this conversation. Thank you so much for being here with us and sharing yourself and your, your wisdom and your book with our audience. If you're listening to this right now, and you'd like to connect with Michael and get your own copy of Leadership Upgrade visit https://www.sidehustlelounge.com/VIP join the free VIP room. We'll have a whole section just for Michael, his book and some of his other resources as well. So you can get to know him a little bit. Michael, thanks again for being here.

Michael Rowell (01:17:49):

Thanks heaps! I really enjoyed it. Thank you.

Bill

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